Results of hot loads in an old rifle barrel? Tell me what would happen!

[Kev18]

I have an old rifle and everyone tells me to keep the loads under 1500fps which I always have. But what would happen if I would pus hthe rounds to 1700fps for example? Shoot out the rifling? Im not worried about the action at all.

[country gent]

Several things here come into play with these fine old guns. One is the steel used in them was softer and not as consistent. Another is heat treat and annealing were not nearly as precise as today. Almost all materials exhibit some form of fatigue with age and use. A lot of the steels were a leaded steel for ease of machining and to improve tool life. Another is the manufacturing was not nearly as precise as todays, remember this was the day of flat belt machines and manual controls. The existing wear comes into this also.

So that light load is easy on the rifle at 1400-1500 fps is a nice fun load to bring some fine steel back into use safely. Up that to 1700 -1800fps and the added pressures may accelerate wear and stretching of parts, cause issues with worn parts, and speed failure. lot of these rifles were designed around Black Powder loaded ammo.

A good example of this is the S&W K frames they run for ever on light wadcutter loads and mild 38s. Up the diet to +p and the life of the revolver drops quickly, at 357 mag they have an even shorter life. I've been told the +P+ 9mm load Illinois issued to state patrol cut the life of the S&W 49 & 59 in half.

[Kev18]

Several things here come into play with these fine old guns. One is the steel used in them was softer and not as consistent. Another is heat treat and annealing were not nearly as precise as today. Almost all materials exhibit some form of fatigue with age and use. A lot of the steels were a leaded steel for ease of machining and to improve tool life. Another is the manufacturing was not nearly as precise as todays, remember this was the day of flat belt machines and manual controls. The existing wear comes into this also.

So that light load is easy on the rifle at 1400-1500 fps is a nice fun load to bring some fine steel back into use safely. Up that to 1700 -1800fps and the added pressures may accelerate wear and stretching of parts, cause issues with worn parts, and speed failure. lot of these rifles were designed around Black Powder loaded ammo.

A good example of this is the S&W K frames they run for ever on light wadcutter loads and mild 38s. Up the diet to +p and the life of the revolver drops quickly, at 357 mag they have an even shorter life. I've been told the +P+ 9mm load Illinois issued to state patrol cut the life of the S&W 49 & 59 in half.

Thanks, never heard the bit about leaded steel. Makes sense though! In those days the fps for about every cartridge iv'e seen is 1500 fps or less... Big or small.

[Char-Gar]

Several things here come into play with these fine old guns. One is the steel used in them was softer and not as consistent. Another is heat treat and annealing were not nearly as precise as today. Almost all materials exhibit some form of fatigue with age and use. A lot of the steels were a leaded steel for ease of machining and to improve tool life. Another is the manufacturing was not nearly as precise as todays, remember this was the day of flat belt machines and manual controls. The existing wear comes into this also.

So that light load is easy on the rifle at 1400-1500 fps is a nice fun load to bring some fine steel back into use safely. Up that to 1700 -1800fps and the added pressures may accelerate wear and stretching of parts, cause issues with worn parts, and speed failure. lot of these rifles were designed around Black Powder loaded ammo.

A good example of this is the S&W K frames they run for ever on light wadcutter loads and mild 38s. Up the diet to +p and the life of the revolver drops quickly, at 357 mag they have an even shorter life. I've been told the +P+ 9mm load Illinois issued to state patrol cut the life of the S&W 49 & 59 in half.

Straight skinny for sure. I would also want to know what the extra 200 fps would do that the lesser velocity would not do?

"If you want to drive a bigger nail, get a bigger hammer"...Worth Palmer, gunsmith Brownsville, Texas 1960.

[country gent]

Those old lever actions are neat interesting rifles. A lot of history behind them. Remember back in their day a rifle was more a tool than a hobby or sport, so they got used some pretty hard at times. As I mentioned manufacturing and true production line was in its beginning here, still a lot of hand fitting being done, and almost all tooling cutters fixtures and gages were made in house. Where the screw machines, lathes, and mills of the day were probably capable of repeating with in +/- .005 and also may have been made in house.

The steels of the day were all lower carbon and some leaded to make for a easy machining material, and the alloys that toughen / harden were just coming into use. The leaded steels are still available today and used 10L18 is a free machining material and with proper feeds speeds and tool geometry when machined will almost look like chrome when machined. This was the era of the flat belt machines and over head drive shafts, Black sulfur cutting oils, and tooling way softer than todays. Stress relief was and stress it self was just coming into understanding.

What real need is there to "hot rod these fine old fire arms? Why try to turn it into something different or modernized it and beat it up? Look at what was accomplished with the 45-70 and its original loading, then look in the manuals and see how many give a load that duplicates that, but there will be a bunch for "modern" at almost twice the pressure.

In reality and for the sake of these fine old firearms if you want modern buy a 308, 30-06 or 300 mag and load it up.

[country gent]

As to the 200 fps increase Ill bet it dosnt make a full minutes change in elevation at 300 yds

[Kev18]

I wont ruin the rifle, or boost the fps. I was just curious. Thanks fro the info.

[David2011]

Sorry for a slight diversion.

I’ve wondered how long precision machining has been available. As a French horn player I was aware that they have had rotating valves since the early 1800s- 200 years. They would not work with.005” fits. That’s far too sloppy. They have to fit air tight via a thin oil film while also being virtually friction free; same for trumpets and tubas.

I’ve held .001” on old South Bend lathes which were originally a flat belt design. Well, even the “newer” electric ones are still flat belt driven and there’s little difference in the design from the water wheel/shaft driven models. I think precision lathes have been around for a long time.

[M-Tecs]

Unless it's a .32-40 or .38-55 manufactured before mid-1895 it will have a nickel steel barrel. If its a .32-40 or .38-55 manufactured after mid-1895 it may or may not be nickel steel http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...n-Nickel-steel

Winchester began working on making nickel-steel barrels for the new 1894 that could handle the equally new smokeless powders but it wasn’t a simple task. For this reason the initial cartridges chambered in the ’94 were blackpowder .32-40 and .38-55 rounds. By mid-1895 the nickel-steel barrel issues had successfully been addressed and Winchester introduced its first smokeless powder sporting cartridge-the .25-35 Winchester Center Fire (WCF)-in the ’94. A few months later they expanded the neck of the .25-35 to .30 caliber, and the .30-30 Winchester was born.

https://winchester.com/Blog/2016/05/...ough-the-years

"30-30 Misconceptions Through The Years

The most popular hunting rifle and cartridge combination in history is widely known — and inaccurately understood.
The John Browning-designed Winchester Model 94 lever-action in 30-30 Winchester was the first commercial sporting rifle/cartridge that used smokeless gunpowder. This was a huge advancement in firearms technology, but the M94 was not initially chambered in 30-30.

The first M94s to roll out of the factory in 1894 were chambered for two black-powder rounds, the 32-40 and 38-55. It wasn’t until the next year that a Model 94 with a stronger, nickel-steel barrel was offered in the brand new .30 Winchester Center Fire. But that wasn’t all. A simultaneous release was the same rifle chambered for the .25-35 Winchester, which also burned smokeless.

The 30-30 designation came later because non-Winchester ammo brands didn’t care to advertise .30 Winchester Center Fire on their products. The new round burned 30 grains of smokeless powder, so they went with the traditional black-powder nomenclature that listed caliber followed by the powder quantity, even though the 30-grains of smokeless powder spit out a lot more energy than 30 grains of black-powder. That probably confused a lot of shooters in the early years, but they eventually figured out this new round was a barn burner.
The original 30 WCF load pushed a 160-grain bullet 1,970 fps. As better powders were created, velocity gradually increased until reaching today’s velocities of around 2,330 fps with a 170-grain bullet and 2,450 fps with a 150-grain slug. Most hunting rounds in 1895 flew 1,200 to perhaps 1,600 fps.
Something else the 30-30 helped force into the market place was jacketed bullets. As velocities approached 2,000 fps, pure lead bullets began to strip during their ride down the barrel. This both fouled bores and compromised energy. Wrapping a jacket of copper, brass or gilding metal around the lead core fixed that. It also addressed the excessive expansion of soft lead slugs impacting at high velocity. Longer, heavier and thicker jackets gradually perfected a balance between expansion and penetration.
The M94 in 30-30 has proven an ideal brush rifle for deer hunting, but not for the reasons many think. Bullets from the 30-30 are no better nor worse than those from other popular deer rounds at busting through brush to reach the target. Neither their velocity nor flat nose nor round nose shapes prevent limbs and brush from deflecting them from their course. Rather, the M94 lever-action rifle is so light, quick, handy and fast to recycle that most users can get on target and hit quickly. The relatively mild recoil of the 30-30 prevents flinching, too. These attributes, not magical brush busting, are the real reasons the M94 in 30-30 Winchester has sold more than 8 million copies and put more deer on the meat pole than any other rifle/cartridge combination in history."

[OS OK]

Thanks for that M-Tecs...was very interesting.

[Wayne Smith]

The other issues here is to limit yourself to lead alloy boolits. Condum bullets are significantly harder and will wear the rifling in that soft steel.

[Kev18]

The rifle in the picture is a 40-82 wcf. The first express cartridge on the market I think. First made for the 1885 highwall. Thats why I was curious.It is advertised as an express cartridge, but I understand that velocities in those days were almost all the same. They fixed the shooting trajectory by adding a lighter bullet. 40-82 is a 45-90 necked down and shortened a hair.

[M-Tecs]

I didn't see that it was an 86. The 40-82 wcf standard load was around 1,400 and the express was around 1,800

http://levergun-scoundrels.com/threa...-wcf-load-data

http://homesteadfirearms.com/apprais...variations.htm

[Kev18]

I didn't see that it was an 86. The 40-82 wcf standard load was around 1,400 and the express was around 1,800

http://levergun-scoundrels.com/threa...-wcf-load-data

http://homesteadfirearms.com/apprais...variations.htm

That forum page was a good read. Il print it out. Everyone tells me to stay under 1500 fps? Does this mean because it is an express caliber I could shoot 1800 like you said. Keep in mind the rifle was made in 1889, so it isnt a new barrel.

I shoot 260gr wheel weight lead bullets, lubed
34grains of 3031 with cornmeal filler
standard large rifle primers.

It has low recoil.
So far this is the only load that worked for mean I tried EVERYTHING. I spoke with a man that I meant on here and he had all the same issues as me with the caliber. He also said to stay under the 1500 mark.
I wish I could find a piece of a cartridge box or a paper from winchester stating the FPS form those days.

[Gaseous Maximus]

Sorry for a slight diversion.

I’ve wondered how long precision machining has been available. As a French horn player I was aware that they have had rotating valves since the early 1800s- 200 years. They would not work with.005” fits. That’s far too sloppy. They have to fit air tight via a thin oil film while also being virtually friction free; same for trumpets and tubas.

I’ve held .001” on old South Bend lathes which were originally a flat belt design. Well, even the “newer” electric ones are still flat belt driven and there’s little difference in the design from the water wheel/shaft driven models. I think precision lathes have been around for a long time.

David, I have also done that very thing. For what its worth, and probably not much, I believe that the advantage of modern CNC equip. is its ability to turn out very precise, practically identical parts, in rapid succession, with a very low reject rate. I apologize for getting off topic.