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Thread: Pistol caliber carbines Plusses and Minuses--your opinion?

  1. #1
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Pistol caliber carbines Plusses and Minuses--your opinion?

    I was just looking over the current crop of carbines chambered in pistol calibers. Just about everything from 9mm through 45LC.
    Many good, dependable, and accurate choices out there.
    My question is, What do you really gain or lose with a carbine over a handgun?
    According to Ballistics by the Inch, there really isn't much difference in velocity and energy with the addition of several inches of barrel for most of the handgun cartridges. The exceptions being the magnum cartridges loaded with slower burning powders(357mag, 44mag, and in some cases, the 45LC.
    At most the non magnum cartridges gain 200fps or less. Most often, less.
    All you gain is a weapon with better aiming systems and less felt recoil. This ignores the fun factor of course.
    You don't really gain effective range because velocity is the first thing you lose with a pistol boolit. You do get(normally) enough better accuracy that you can extend your accurate range to beyond the practical limits of the cartridge.
    With the magnum cartridges, you gain quite a bit of velocity due to the extra barrel length. This makes the carbines effective beyond the range of the same cartridge in a handgun. The better accuracy allows this extra effective range to be put to good use.
    I realize there are people out there who can shoot a handgun equally as well at distance as they can a carbine. Most people are not in this group. I know that I certainly am not in it.
    The magnum cartridge carbines, at least, give you a good practical extension to the effective range of the cartridge over a handgun.
    Other than the fun factor and the easily handled carbine length rifles, what is the point to a pistol cartridge in a carbine when you essentially gain nothing but some extra weight to carry around?

  2. #2
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Big difference in velocity between .30 Carbine Ruger Blackhawk and US M1 carbine.

    The Ruger is more accurate at 100 yards than my WW2 Inland.

    JACKETED FACTORY .30 Caliber Carbine Ammunition In Revolver and Rifle

    Ammunition_________Ruger 7-1/2”____________US M1 Carbine 18”
    LC44 Ball M1__________1586 fps , 20 Sd, 46 ES_______1981 fps, 20 Sd, 56 ES
    WCC44 Ball M1________1527, 21, 58_______________1960, 23, 89
    PPU 110-gr.SP__________1321, 30, 84______________1903, 25, 84
    Norma 110-gr. SP_______1490, 35, 96______________1960, 18, 59
    W-W 110-gr. HSP_______1300, 29, 79______________1894, 18, 63
    Federal 110-gr. SP______1414, 22, 54______________1959, 16, 56
    Column Means_____1439 fps Avg. REVOLVER___1943 fps Avg. CARBINE

    Velocity increase of carbine over revolver = +504 fps

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  3. #3
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    The 30 carbine was one of the few I didn't bother to look at. Mostly because I look at it as a carbine cartridge sometimes chambered in handguns and not as a handgun cartridge chambered in carbines.
    Actually, I didn't look at anything under 9mm caliber. It didn't seem productive.

  4. #4
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    There are no minuses except lever actions that cannot feed certain bullets. The .357 magnum can really bark in a 16" barrel.

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    The M1 Carbine fulfills any need I have for that category of firearm. Next step up is .300 BO, then 30-30. I am a reloader so I can make them multitask!

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    Boolit Grand Master Harter66's Avatar
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    I had an 1894C Marlin in 38/357 paired with a 6" Sec 6 . Basically it was 400 fps for every load and it would feed flush seated 38 WC loads .
    I stepped up to a 16" 92' Rossi in Colts paired with a 45 Colts 7.5" RBH . A lot changed there . Loads gained only 200 fps and wierd stuff happened past 75 yd due most likely to the 1-32" twist . At 20" it's the same 200 fps and at 24" the MV is only matching pistol speeds .

    The no gap breech is a big gain in speed over revolvers .
    I did load some fast rifle powder under a 350 gr bullet for the carbine and well ain't no 350 going 1300 fps out of even 454 it's close to the 460 S&W pistol .

    Fun is the best part of them and of course being able to stretch effective ranges slightly as well as improved accuracy .

    I almost forgot I had fooled with a 45 Raptor which is the 460 Smith in a trimmed 308 case . At 1800 fps with 4198 from published data and 350s stops being fun in a 6.5# rifle .
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  7. #7
    Boolit Master

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    Put 10 shots on an 8 inch target at 50-75 yards with a PPC, then try it with a pistol chambered in the same caliber. There is no comparison. I like PPCs because brass is usually free and lasts forever, they tend to be cast friendly, and they sip powder. A 200 fps increase might not sound like much, but seemingly modest fps gains really increase energy quickly. PPCs also tend to be larger calibers, perfect for putting large holes in things quietly! Much easier on the ears than a 223 or other small caliber rifles for <100 yard pest control. Easier on steel targets as well.

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    Boolit Master
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    im not sure comparing say a 44 pistol to a 44 rifle is the right comparison even if they shoot the same bullet. that's sort of like comparing a motorbike to a go kart just because they have the same engine. for me its more why would I want to carry a 44 rifle instead of a 30-06, and a pistol is so different its not comparable. but the advantages I see are its compact and light, it can kill anything the 30-06 can, lower recoil blast and powder, holds twice as many bullets, good fun plinking potential when loaded up with low end loads. main disadvantage is just bullet drop over a regular rifle.

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    The PC Carbines like the Ruger PC carbine have several advantages. 1. They usually use the same magazines as your pistol. 2. There is definitely an increase in velocity and it is more like 200-400 fps, depending on caliber. 3.The rifle has a longer sight radius and also a longer accurate range. The Rifle increases your sphere of influence over that of a Pistol.

    Auto pistols have an effective range of <50 yards, mostly due to the sights. Add a red dot and you're out to 100 yards if you can hold well enough. With a USA 1 SHOT Pistol Brace you are out to 150 yards easily and I have hit at 200 yards frequently. But you are still dealing with 200-400 fps less velocity.

    I am hoping that Ruger will release the PC Carbine in .40 S&W this year and I will get one immediately. I don't do 9MM and neither should anyone else. Proper caliber pistol cartridges start with a .4! 9MM is an inferior cartridge and the sole reason why so many pistols have 17-20 round mags. This has been known since the early 1900's when the Army rejected it in favor of the .45 ACP. Nothing has changed!

    These PC carbines were originally designed to be back up guns for Police. The AR variations are relatively new but the overall concept has been around since the 1870's.

    I want one and my most pressing use would be in local 3 gun comps. If you have ever shot at a plate rack, my best so far has been 5.6 seconds using my G35 with Red Dot and Pistol Brace. I would expect to do half that with the carbine.

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  10. #10
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    It's amazing what those little cases can do in a strong action and a long barrel. I have a single shot bolt action 45acp that can be loaded really hot and will give some impressive numbers. At one time I had a 15" 45lc contender that would push a 320gr bullet to 1510fps and cloverleaf at 75 yards.
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  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    I rember when I wanted a m1 carbine bad. All the older guys that used one in the army said they where junk to not very accurate. I had my ffl then in the late 80’s and could pick out different makers of m1’s. They where 189.00.then. Sks was also the same price so I got that. It is a original army issue Chinese military made gun. The sks have went up but not as much as the m1 carbine.

  12. #12
    Boolit Grand Master Harter66's Avatar
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    The virtue of the PCC is one cartridge in both a rifle and pistol . Less ammo to carry or more ammo for each . It used to be a lot more important than it is now .

    I for got about the 45 ACP too I haven't chronographed it .....the box mag in the rifle doesn't play well with the revolver clips . I've shot the same groups at 50 yd with the ACP rifle as the pistol at 25 yd . The pistol doesn't like the 255s but the rifle would put them 3/9 on a 12×18 plate at 135 yd , off hand .
    The other pistol shoots the 255s well and makes a better load companion .
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    I have killed 4 hogs from 50 to almost 200 pounds with my hipoint 45 acp carbine. My 780 fps, 200 rf general plinking load for my 5" 1911 clocks 920 from the carbine and has accounted for 3 of those pigs, including the largest one with 2 shots and 2 pass throughs. 200 fps in a 45acp is a 25% velocity increase!
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    ...............Many years ago I turned a Spanish Destroyer carbine in 38 Largo into a 45 ACP carbine. Holy cats, some eye popping differences



    The mag is obviously a 1911 magazine. I'm at my Dad's in Pima, AZ so I cannot quote any load data specifics, except I do recall shooting 405gr Lee 45 cal rifle boolits (Sized .452") at 1100 fps. Naturally they were single loaded due to their OAL. I recall loading those in brass CCC headstamped cases. After their second firing I noticed that inside the case where the case wall turned into the floor of the case, there was a circular crack in the floor After that I switched to EC43 (Evansville Chrysler) steel cases, but didn't fire many more loaded like that, regardless the tougher cases. Regular jacketed and cast 45 ACP type slugs were used after that, and produced some fairly exciting velocities.
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    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    This conversation is exactly what I am looking for. Lots of different opinions.
    Some very good food for thought here. Keep it coming.

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    there is a serious difference in what happens down range.

    a lot of gun writers feel a 4" barreled 44 magnum is a 75 yard elk gun. 44 magnum with 18 inch tube IS.

  17. #17
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    Look at USPSA. The new PCC class (Pistol Caliber Carbine) shows the speed and accuracy advantage of the carbine over a pistol.

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    main advantage to me is there cheap to shoot. My 9mm ar15s can be shot as cheap as you can buy 22 shells in this crazy world. With a lb of powder a brick of primers and some lead I can shoot CHEAP. I don't really care if they give 300fps more velocity as there mostly plinking guns to me. If things went bad id probably grab a 556. But for fun shooting a coffee can full of 9s and a 9mm ar15 and something like a glock 19 will put a smile on your face for hours. Same thing if you like lever guns (which I do too) a little 357 carbine is some cheap fun. Let the 22 manufactures and guns shops rape there customers. My 22s about have become dust collectors.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcren View Post
    I have killed 4 hogs from 50 to almost 200 pounds with my hipoint 45 acp carbine. My 780 fps, 200 rf general plinking load for my 5" 1911 clocks 920 from the carbine and has accounted for 3 of those pigs, including the largest one with 2 shots and 2 pass throughs. 200 fps in a 45acp is a 25% velocity increase!
    What size were the pigs and where did you hit them?
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  20. #20
    Boolit Master
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    I guess I am one who has no use for them. If I am going to carry something as large as a carbine then I want it in a rifle caliber.

    My father-in-law and I messed around with his .357's for quite a while. They did not do very well with one load. The rifle (Marlin) liked heavy bullets loaded at max. The Python liked light bullets. The SAA clone liked heavy bullets loaded light. In the end he sold the rifle and gave me the Python. The SAA clone was his carry gun on the 'ranch'. His 'truck gun' was an old .30-30 Model 94.

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