80% lower legal questions

[rancher1913]

sorry this has devolved like this, I was not interested in being told "dont do it" I was interested in what was legal and what was not. I have no nefarious reasons for building these, just simply wanted a firmer understanding of the laws from a layman view point as I do not decipher leagleze and knew there were members that fully understood the rules and hopefully could explain them better. there has only been a handful of posts that even addressed the question, the rest are just rants and opinions, I thank the posters that took the time to answer the questions seriously and mods you can close this before it makes it to the pit if you so choose.

[jmort]

I thought it was a useful and interesting thread. There is, as a general matter, thread drift in many/most threads.

[Char-Gar]

sorry this has devolved like this, I was not interested in being told "dont do it" I was interested in what was legal and what was not. I have no nefarious reasons for building these, just simply wanted a firmer understanding of the laws from a layman view point as I do not decipher leagleze and knew there were members that fully understood the rules and hopefully could explain them better. there has only been a handful of posts that even addressed the question, the rest are just rants and opinions, I thank the posters that took the time to answer the questions seriously and mods you can close this before it makes it to the pit if you so choose.

I see no devolving at all. You got the answers you requested. I get it, that some folks, just on principal, don't like being told not to do something, but really, you asked for it.

I have not briefed the law on this question and really have no desire to do so. "Studying the law is like eating sawdust without butter"...Justice Holmes. I don't look up laws for fun and only do it when I get payed to do so. But my educated guess is "Don't do it", you are on very thin ice. Just ask the folks who thought that Bump Stocks was an easy way around the law. First time, somebody shoots up a school or large gathering with one of these ghost rifle, it will be all over. The ATF can change their regs in the blink of an eye.

[Lloyd Smale]

just ordered two more bare lowers from psa yesterday. 95 dollars shipped. About the cost of two pairs of jeans today. Im not buying a sewing machine and some denim and making them either. Maybe if ars cost a grand but today you can put one together cheaper then a ruger American or savage axis. I guess im not going to start swadging my own 223 brass either when I can buy it for less then a 100 bucks a thousand. If you think the procecuter isn't going to bring up the fact that you used a home built non serial number gun to kill someone in your home then ive got this bridge for sale. Might as well fit it with a bump stock while your at it. Dump a full mag on them. Im sure its legal (at least for now) and how could it be used against you in court??? youd best hope you have a very conservative jury.

[Lloyd Smale]

I say buy few more that have serial numbers so the government knows how hard it will be to confiscate 10 million of them. If its legal for me to own one why would I care if the government knows I have one. I WANT them to know that its my constitutional RIGHT to buy as many of them as I want. I want idiots like Obama to know that every time he puts pressure on gun owners sales go through the roof and even more of them are in the hands of law abiding citizens. I served and fought for my constitutional right to own one. Im sure not slinking around in the dark trying to hide it.

Except that a tie rod end doesn't have a serial number and you don't need to fill out a 4473 form to transfer a tie rod end........

80% receivers aren't about money or even the enjoyment of making them; they are about creating a receiver (and ultimately an entire firearm) that the government doesn't know about.

Let's be honest - it's easier and cheaper to just buy a receiver. I have no problem with people who can lawfully possess a firearm from making a firearm but it isn't done because it's cheaper.

[Petrol & Powder]

Perhaps I should have put the first line of my post in purple to show a bit of sarcasm.

I'm not worried about the paper trail but other people are and that is what drives the sales of 80% lowers.

I agree with your analogy of buying a sewing machine and denim to make a pair of jeans that you can buy for far less money.

Lloyd, once again - I AM AGREEING WITH YOU.

[Mr_Sheesh]

It's purple, not pink, that we use for humor about here. And it's not always sarcasm, I'm more of a facetious humor person, myself.

Or you could use <sarcasm> comment </sarcasm> or the like if not using Purple, I guess

[Petrol & Powder]

Thanks, Got the color wrong, fixed it

[Char-Gar]

just ordered two more bare lowers from psa yesterday. 95 dollars shipped. About the cost of two pairs of jeans today. Im not buying a sewing machine and some denim and making them either. Maybe if ars cost a grand but today you can put one together cheaper then a ruger American or savage axis. I guess im not going to start swadging my own 223 brass either when I can buy it for less then a 100 bucks a thousand. If you think the procecuter isn't going to bring up the fact that you used a home built non serial number gun to kill someone in your home then ive got this bridge for sale. Might as well fit it with a bump stock while your at it. Dump a full mag on them. Im sure its legal (at least for now) and how could it be used against you in court??? youd best hope you have a very conservative jury.

Agreed

[redneck1]

Let's clear up some confusion about the jig itself ... don't believe me when I say this , call the Batf and find out for your self .

First off the batf doesn't give a rat's hind end about a jig it's not a fire arm or a firearm part . Very simple !
You can loan it , sell it , rent it , lease it do what ever in the heck you want with it . It's a jig not a fire arm .
The only thing that matters to the batf is that you aren't illegally manufacturing firearms with it .
If you rent it to a friend and they use it to Do a reciever it's perfectly legal ... they are doing the work .
There aren't any if's ands or but's about it . The only thing the batf cares about is who completed the firearm

[Omega]

just ordered two more bare lowers from psa yesterday. 95 dollars shipped. About the cost of two pairs of jeans today. Im not buying a sewing machine and some denim and making them either. Maybe if ars cost a grand but today you can put one together cheaper then a ruger American or savage axis. I guess im not going to start swadging my own 223 brass either when I can buy it for less then a 100 bucks a thousand. If you think the procecuter isn't going to bring up the fact that you used a home built non serial number gun to kill someone in your home then ive got this bridge for sale. Might as well fit it with a bump stock while your at it. Dump a full mag on them. Im sure its legal (at least for now) and how could it be used against you in court??? youd best hope you have a very conservative jury.

In that case, where's this bridge you speak of? I get tired of hearing this BS repeated over and over. This argument has been around for years, tweaked to demonize one thing or another; deadly hollowpoints, reloads for SD, home made weapons...if it is a good shoot, it's a good shoot, period. Prosecutors, if you are charged, can and probably will throw as many charges on you as he can. But which case has ever used one of these arguments? The closest one I can recall, is that LEO which had an AR dust cover with a “you’re ******,”’ on it, the prosecutor tried to use it but was ultimately ruled inadmissible.

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...-him-in-court/

I fully agree that today, there is no practical reason for an 80% lower, but I've read many of you doing projects for nothing more than to do it, I see no difference, this is the United States after all, the only reason we should need is because we want to.

[elmacgyver0]

Most 80% lowers that get sold are never built.
It is a little more difficult to do than portrayed.
If you are not into machine tools, good luck.

[redneck1]

There's nothing complicated about an ar lower with a decent jig and a good router .
No machine tools required a good jig is darn close to fool proof for anyone handy with tools .

[6.5 CM]

Wanna bet that by now NSA has passed all the info on the OP over to ATF ?

We'll be reading about him as a "domestic terrorist".

[turtlezx]

so when your done building it cant ever sell it?????????????
what good is that what happens when you die??

[redneck1]

It is perfectly legal to sell a gun you have built , what is illegal is to build them with the intent to sell .

And contrary to popular belief , there is no federal requirements to have a serial number .

[Lloyd Smale]

yup its a free country and a bump stock according to anyone that has a high school level education and reads the laws will say is totally within the law too. Now take your bump stock to the range next week and fire away. Its not me going to jail or having to argue with the feds in court. Sure you might not end up in jail because you defended your home with a home made gun that fits the letter of the law but id bet you a dime to a dollar that your lawyer is going to make a few thousand extra bucks defending you because most work by the hour and if you think a prosecutor isn't going to try to use that or some judge in a liberal state like CA or NY will instantly throw it out and isn't going to listen then I have ____ _____! As it is even with a registered gun people spend weeks in court justifying legally defending there home. Its why some people even buy insurance for ccw carrying just in case they have to defend themselves on the street and then in court. Yup nobody has gone to jail for using a handload but ill bet you a dime to a dollar it cost them a few more bucks to fight and probably more then the 10 dollar difference in price between an 80 percent lower and a 50 dollar boughten one. Im a bullet caster and shoot 99 percent cast bullets but my self defense guns are loaded with factory ammo. For the 20 bucks a box costs it isn't worth to me my choice in ammo even being mentioned if I end up in court.

In that case, where's this bridge you speak of? I get tired of hearing this BS repeated over and over. This argument has been around for years, tweaked to demonize one thing or another; deadly hollowpoints, reloads for SD, home made weapons...if it is a good shoot, it's a good shoot, period. Prosecutors, if you are charged, can and probably will throw as many charges on you as he can. But which case has ever used one of these arguments? The closest one I can recall, is that LEO which had an AR dust cover with a “you’re f*****,”’ on it, the prosecutor tried to use it but was ultimately ruled inadmissible.

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...-him-in-court/

I fully agree that today, there is no practical reason for an 80% lower, but I've read many of you doing projects for nothing more than to do it, I see no difference, this is the United States after all, the only reason we should need is because we want to.

[Omega]

yup its a free country and a bump stock according to anyone that has a high school level education and reads the laws will say is totally within the law too. Now take your bump stock to the range next week and fire away. Its not me going to jail or having to argue with the feds in court. Sure you might not end up in jail because you defended your home with a home made gun that fits the letter of the law but id bet you a dime to a dollar that your lawyer is going to make a few thousand extra bucks defending you because most work by the hour and if you think a prosecutor isn't going to try to use that or some judge in a liberal state like CA or NY will instantly throw it out and isn't going to listen then I have ____ _____! As it is even with a registered gun people spend weeks in court justifying legally defending there home. Its why some people even buy insurance for ccw carrying just in case they have to defend themselves on the street and then in court. Yup nobody has gone to jail for using a handload but ill bet you a dime to a dollar it cost them a few more bucks to fight and probably more then the 10 dollar difference in price between an 80 percent lower and a 50 dollar boughten one. Im a bullet caster and shoot 99 percent cast bullets but my self defense guns are loaded with factory ammo. For the 20 bucks a box costs it isn't worth to me my choice in ammo even being mentioned if I end up in court.

Well, never lived in a communist state, so can't speak of what they may or not do. But every SD case I've read so far, with possibly a few exceptions, it always ends with "home owner not expected to be charged". The has been at least one, in which the home owner "baited" his garage, and another in which home owner shot through the front door, and yet another on the porch...etc. But those are questionable shootings, and IMO, should be investigated further. Again, except for the LEO I mentioned, I've never heard of anyone's reloads, or weapon come into question. The quantity of shots, yes, but never the type.
As to the bump stock, I never seen the practical use of one, or full auto, but I thing the ATF is wrong on this one. The 80%s, well it looks like they will have their day in court as well, as some states have begun trying to outlaw them, with the Dem Feds sure to follow.

[FLINTNFIRE]

Well lets drop the % down to 60% heck why stop there no building a firearm yourself at all , reasonable restrictions , magazine limitations , it is only those assault weapons after all it is not my shotgun or hunting rifle , Well remember when they were railing against snub nose pistols , sniper rifles , do not for a minute think that because it is store bought you are in a better spot or less likely to be taken to court the agenda is to take all the weapons away from the free as no law yet has stopped a criminal from doing a crime .
I think the original question has been answered and now it is just differing opinions on what we should be allowed to own build or possess , I myself see the reason to buy them , does not mean they have to be built and it does not mean they are any different then any manufactured ones of any brand , it is my right to do as I please as long as I do not break the law.
If someone else does not want one then do not buy one , but the choice should be up to each individual , there are some very talented people on here who build their own different firearms and reloading tools , who create and craft and personalize and to each their own , As to the coming year I expect more laws and attacks on our constitutional rights .

[WILCO]

guess I could have made it a poll, huh wilco

Dude, that would have been epic!