Ladle vs Bottom Pour

[tazman]

I use both methods. Which simply depends on the size (weight) of the bullet I casting. Generally for 300 gr or less I use the bottom pour (Lyman Mag20) although I have one 350 gr mould that casts excellently using the bottom pour. For most others 375+ gr I use a ladle.

Interesting. If you would, I would be interested in hearing the reasons for that.

[Walks]

Ladle pour with 1cav molds.

Bottom spout with 2+cav molds.

This is the method My DAD & Uncle used with H & G 8-10cav molds over a 100lb Plumbers Pot 60yrs ago. They used 3 molds each & 2 helpers.

Why would you drop PURE Lead into water ? Why quench balls for Black powder Shooting. makes no sense.

[gwpercle]

I started in 1967...long time ago and did ladle casting with single and double cavity moulds. At first I just used an old kitchen type spoon (think Lee's) it wasn't that great so next got a Lyman ladle with the side spout...That worked much better, used that method for years (decades). Joined this site and heard how you have to use a bottom pour to cast with .... OK...I buy a bottom pour. What I discover is for some reason, with my single and double cavity moulds I can a lot of boolits but most go back into the pot because of defects. Thinking more cavities might help I buy 3 and 4 cavity moulds.
Now I can make huge piles of boolits with lots of defects !!!! I pull out my Ladle and go back to basic's, just about every boolit's a keeper, few rejects and I'm happy.
Mailed the bottom pour to a fellow member who had a house fire, lost most everything and wanted it.
I haven't missed it a bit.
One bit of advice if you are going to ladle cast ...go big on the pot, I got a Lee Magnum Melter and the 15 - 20 pound capacity is wonderful, should have got one decades ago. Small pots really hamper production...get a pot that's large.
Gary

[country gent]

. I ladle cast for years doing pistol bullets. When I start BPCR silhouette I went to ladle pouring for a couple reasons. These bullets are long 1.3" - 1.5" and I get better fill with the ladle. I like to over pour the moulds letting excess run back in the pot. ( I don't pour for a sprue but a ladle full of metal and the sprue forms from what's left) Doing this with a bottom pour makes a mess. Last I use a big pot to cast from now, it doesn't take long casting 550 grn 45s to empty a 20 lb pot. My current set up is gas fired and the pot holds 125lbs of lead.

With the shorter lighter pistol bullets there wasn't a lot of difference between ladle and bottom pour as to weight and fill out same with shorter rifle bullets. WIth the heavy for caliber rifle bullets and bottom pour 1 1/2 grns was about the best spreads I got. With the ladle I'm under 1 grn close to 1/2 grn on these heavy for caliber bullets.

Also my ladles are no longer stock in they have been polished some and the spouts opened up to .210 size ( improves flow ).

My procedure is as follows:
Pre heat moulds and bring pot to 725*-750*
once lead is to temp place ladle in pot I have a stop on th shaft that hooks on edge of pot keeping it in place. Let it warm for 5-7 mins to temp.
Start pouring moulds on the warming shelf are a little warm and need time to cool starting out But II normally get good bullets from the first pour like this.
I run 2moulds at a time.
As stated above when filling I hang the mould over the pot and pour a ladle full of lead into it letting the excess run back into the pot. With the big pot I can cast a bunch of bullets in a sitting. I normally flux with wood shavings wax every 100-150 pours.
When I fill the ladle I push it to the bottom of the pot and make a swirl then lift and pour. This helps keep the 20-1 alloy mixed and fills the ladle with good hot metal.

[Larry Gibson]

Interesting. If you would, I would be interested in hearing the reasons for that.

I normally run the alloy temp in the Mag20 at 710 - 725 degrees. Even at that and the spout wide open the alloy cools and solidifies very quickly, especially in colder casting room temps, many times quicker than the alloy stays molten in larger cavities and even in some 200+ gr long for caliber bullets. That results in wrinkled of not fully filled out bullets. The Lyman Mag20 allows easy adjustment of the spout stem stop so I can increase the flow for larger bullets less than 300 - 350 gr. With other bullets, especially multiple cavity moulds, I open the stop up to allow an even flow of alloy as the alloy drops in the pot.

I've tried different ladles but find a Lyman dipper with the spout drilled out larger allows the molten alloy to get into the larger mould cavities (larger 300 - 350+ bullets) as quick as practical and completely fills them out before the alloy solidifies. I use the ladle technique as outlined in Lyman's CBH #3 and older Lyman manuals. Holding the mould over the pot while pouring allows a generous sprue and run off which also is essential to both ladle and bottom pour methods.

[tazman]

Thank you for the explanation. It makes sense now that I have the details.

[curioushooter]

My vote is for bottom pour, provided that the unit is a good one. My Father-In-Law has a Lee Production Pot, bottom pour, with this hinged nozzle. Never can get it to work right. On the other hand my Lee Pro 4-20 is easy to control and never spills or misses a beat.

The reason why I think bottom pour is better is that one can float a layer of interfacing on top of the melt to prevent oxidation and insulate without having to worry about dross getting picked up. Some people use kitty litter (I personally think this not advisable), but the idea is sound with wood ashes.

I flux with clean southern yellow pine planer shavings (the sappier the better). I have found it to be better than everything else I have tried from tallow to stearic acid to paraffin to beeswax. When you use shavings or saw dust to flux you end up with a raft of wood ashes that float on top. This is very beneficial as it keeps heat in and more importantly prevents the oxidation of the tin. When I am done casting I let the residual melt cool in the bottom of the pot and then upend it and dump out the ashes into a garbage can.

If I were to try a ladle pour, I think I would pick up the ashes floating on top.

[dwtim]

I am not a fan of complicating things that could be simple. I have read far too many threads written by pour souls (get it?) with clogged spouts. I don't use an open ladle, so I have no problems with surface impurities or pour pressure. But this is my opinion, based on my needs. I think it depends on what you need to accomplish.

Ladle Pour:
Less complicated pot set-up
Simple pot tolerates dirty range scrap, junk yard scrap, etc. without loss of reliability
Easier to use many types of smaller molds in same session (I do this because the molds get too hot, so I just switch molds back and forth instead of slowing down)

Bottom-Pour:
More efficient use of material....can get closer the bottom of the pot without slowing down
Higher productivity
Enhanced safety, cleanliness; less chance of burns from splatter

[GregLaROCHE]

With a ladle, how do you keep the flux from the top of the melt, out of it? Do you use a cover of flux kitty litter on top of the melt like with bottom pour pots?

[winelover]

Bottom pour or ladle, I do very little fluxing in the casting pot............. major fluxing should be done in the smelting pot. Starting with clean alloy, only a pea sized piece of beeswax is added to my casting pot, allowed to burn off then skimmed. Never floated kitty litter in either type of casting pots.

When ladle casting, using a #2 Rowell (bottom pour) ladle...............prevents major oxidation bcause it pretty much covers the entire surface of the melt, when floating in the pot between pours.

Winelover

[Petander]

Some molds can be quite sensitive to pour pressure changes that occur with bottom pour pots. Unless you adjust while casting... but that randomizes things even more.

I have one 458 brass double cavity mold that I only ladle cast with, to keep things consistent. Others I bottom pour.

[country gent]

If you dip the ladle to the bottom of the pot everything floats out of it on the swirl, Its then full when it comes thru the surface and cant pick a lot up. Th is requires enough led in the pot to completely to work when the ladle is no longer covered it will pick up surface floaters.

[WheelgunConvert]

I always felt like I needed a third arm while using a ladle.
I keep a tall column of melt in my lee BP20. I blip the handle before I pour to keep the spout up to temp and liquid

[lightman]

I started with a 10# Lyman cast iron pot on a Coleman Stove and a Lyman ladle. As soon as we could afford a bottom pour pot we bought a 10# Lyman electric bottom pour pot and never looked back. I still have the Coleman Stove, the cast iron pot and the ladle. The Coleman Stove serves as a back-up for ice storms, the cast iron pot holds the dross that I skim off of my electric pot and the ladle just hangs out with the spoons and smelting stuff, pretty much retired. WheelgunConvert pretty much tagger it about needing a 3rd hand!

Its all about personal preference and probably a little about how you got started. My method with a bottom pour pot is that I handle the mold with my left hand and hold my plastic hammer (mold tapper) in my right and work the lever with my right hand, never putting either one of them down.

[MT Gianni]

I flux in my mixing pot and use it for ingots. I only put clean alloy in my casting pot and may flux once if I see impurities. I then clean all ash off and ladle pour from the middle of the pot. I may continue to empty the ladle for small bullets over the mold to unify weights. I have a 225438 single cavity I have measures at less than 0.1 gr weight differences per 100 bullets using this method.

[willicd76]

I plan on starting with the soup ladle with a hole in it. I like the KISS methods best!

[Brad Cayton]

I started casting 40+ years ago with a ladle but then went to a bottom pour. I cast from .32, 98 grain to .459, 500 grains with my Lee bottom pour and adjust my heat till I get the fill out I need.

[Petander]

I sometimes keep RCBS Pro Melt in the "sweet spot" by adding clean alloy and taking breaks. There is a few inches "spot" when everything is right for a mold.

Doing 12 gauge slugs right now, the mold rests on a hot plate and after a while I go back and cast a few dozen. Then add alloy and come back to watch TV,pet the cat,eat Christmas delicacies and drink beer. Then go back to cast when I feel like it.

Such a bad life.

[toallmy]

I do most of my casting with a couple lee 4/20 bottom pore pots , but I picked up a little 10 pound Lyman from a member here for a friend that sent it back to me ' he likes his cast iron pot better ' and it's nice for small jobs dipping pure . In a perfect world I would just set right beside my smelting pot and cast right out of it . Letting the run over run back in the pot , but even with a home made heat shield it gets hot on my legs really quick . That reminds me I need to get some coffee tins filled up soon .

[sathington]

I'm fairly new to casting, only a couple of years and not too consistently. After starting on a drippy Lee bottom pour, I recently bought a nice Waage pot and have switched to ladle pouring. I get less rejects and enjoy it more. I'm not knowledgeable enough yet to claim I know for sure why that is, but if I had to guess, I would reckon it's the art part of casting and not the science. My rhythm seems to be better and more consistent with ladle and I'm not stressing about the constant dripping of the Lee pot. Once we move to a house with an actual garage, I'll start saving my coins for a nicer bottom pour unit, but for now, the big pot and the big ladle do me good.