Keith SWC vs. RNFP

[Heavy lead]

All the things the Brian Pierce has written that I have been able
duplicate have shown him to be exactly correct. I will continue to
listen to what he has to say and compare it to my own experience.

So, far they match exactly but he has done a whole lot more hunting
than I have, or probably ever will do.

I wonder why those Keith shoulders cut paper and wood so well but
can't cut hide? Hard to understand for me.

Bill

+1 on this above post. I do and will continue to use the outdated, old fashioned, *** according to some Keith boolit. I've used plenty of WFN, TC, LFN, and other abc boolits and they all work fine. I use the Keith designs because I find that they are very forgiving, loads, gun, throats, and alloy's don't have to be tweaked dead nuts on nearly as much. I cast fairly soft, lube the big groove up, size and shoot two loads in 6 guns for the 45LC, and 5 in the 44, 2 in the 475, 2 in the 454, 2 in the 41 and 3 in the 357/38. The darn things shoot in anything from 7 yards to 200 in the light (Unique) and the heavy loads (W296 or Lil Gun) mostly in 4 to 6 inch barreled guns. I too enjoy Brian Pearce. His articles are why I started casting in the first place.
I don't care if the driving band cuts or not. The boolits just work.

[yondering]

All the things the Brian Pierce has written that I have been able
duplicate have shown him to be exactly correct. I will continue to
listen to what he has to say and compare it to my own experience.

So, far they match exactly but he has done a whole lot more hunting
than I have, or probably ever will do.

Of course you can duplicate the things Brian Pierce has written. Nobody is saying he's lying. If you shoot Keith boolits into sand, you'll get the same results he did. That doesn't mean it's right. This shows a fundamental lack of understanding about how flat nose boolits work in a fluid.

I wonder why those Keith shoulders cut paper and wood so well but
can't cut hide? Hard to understand for me.

Bill

Like crabo and 44 man said; paper and wood aren't fluids. Sand is not a fluid either. Flesh and living tissue, for the most part, behaves as a fluid, being mostly water. That makes all the difference, right there.

[GLynn41]

In all this very interested post -- one thing is for sure --there is no replacement for the real thing --a deer to understand what happens on impact.--either the Keith or the WFNGC will kill any deer you hit in the right place--I for one indend to use them both as well a LWNGC and I am planning to design my own Keith at Mountain Mold . a .41 of course-- A critter that I have shot a lot of is the lowly Ground hog -- the results with the same normal Keith (410459 with .265 meplat) made calibur size holes on impact- and exit -- the soft point hollow point Keiths were much more dramatic in impact tearing much larger holes- bascailly what I have seen in deer-- I also I have gotten very good accuracy with the Keith

[yondering]

GLynn41, I think you pretty well summed up the important stuff there. The rest is just details.

[cabezaverde]

What about hollowpoint a Ranch Dog 44-265 with the Forster kit?

[44man]

No, don't do it! It will either open too fast or break up. It is a wonderful killer as is. Nothing can stand up long after being hit with it. You WANT it's penetration, don't cut it off.

[GLynn41]

too bad RD does not have a .41--oh well maybe sometime

[MtGun44]

I'd love to see these movies of boolit impacts showing the
shock flowing the gelatin around the shoulder. Are they available
somewhere on the web? Sounds very interesting.

Bill

[44man]

It has been a while since I seen the movies, some were brought over by friends. They might be found on the net, I never looked. These were on video tape.
The most amazing one was an arrow with a razor sharp head shot through a running bucks shoulder. The hide on the off side must have poked out 5" before the arrow broke through. I have no idea how they got that shot with a camera.
Let us know if you find any.

[EDK]

Just from observation on targets. A full wadcutter in 44 makes a nice sharp mark on the cardboard backing of my targets. The LYMAN 429244 and 429215 don't make an appreciably larger or sharper edged hole than the LYMAN 429667 or the RANCH DOG 432 265. They're all a little "fuzzy around the edges."

I grew up reading and thinking that the square shoulder of semi-wadcutters did the damage. BUT the targets (paper plates; I'm frugal!) and double thickness cardboard backing look similar with the semi wadcutter or the round nose flat points. The old quote about cutting a hole with "a drill bit or a punch" would seem to apply.

Brian Pearce has a lot of experience under his belt. His results are hard to argue with...and those of people using the Keith boolits so sucessfully all these years.

Has anyone taken a deer or larger with full wadcutters in 44 or 45?

[Larry Gibson]

"Has anyone taken a deer or larger with full wadcutters in 44 or 45?"

I didn't "take" a deer with one as in hunting but as a LEO in NE Oregon But a SO friend dispatched a doe mule deer with a broken leg with a .44 WC load of mine once. The WC was made by putting a Lyman GC into the front driving bad of 429421 mould. This makes a nice GC'd WC and the normal flat base base of the bullet becomes the WC nose. Alloy was probably WWs. I'm working from memory on this load as I lost a lot of my old data some years back. I'm pretty sure the powder was Unique because the velocity was right at 1000 fps out his 4" M29. The doe (she probably was around 150 lbs) was still somewhat agile and we couldn't get closer than 25-30 yards. He wanted to use the WC load as we figured it wouldn't exit...we were wrong. He shot her broadside in the shoulder about centered. The bullet pretty much exited out the offside shoulder in the same spot. Nice clean wound channel all the way through. I recall making comment at the time that the wound channel was very similar to that of the regular 429241 at 1050 fps (.44 Special in converted M28 S&W) in a couple deer I'd shot.

I've also dispatched several deer with a Lyman 150-160 gr GC'd WC (forget the number as the 4 cavity mould belonged to the PD I worked for). It made very nice WCs and I cast them hard and drove them at 1400+ fps out of a RBH with 6 1/2" barrel. Most of those shots were head/neck so not much to report there except the deer died very quickly of course. I did thump several rock chucks with them and my impression was they did a lot more damage than the SWC.

Larry Gibson

[crabo]

Here's Veral's take on the discussion

http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.p....msg0.html#new

[44man]

Holy smokes, Lloyd mirrors my experience exactly for a change! Of course we almost always agree anyway!
He still gets me out of breath by not breaking into paragraphs.

[38-55]

Hey Guys,
Instead of always discussing anecdotal info why not go to the 'rocket' science of wound ballistics ?
http://pw2.netcom.com/~dmacp/index.html
Stay safe
Calvin

[GLynn41]

.44man maybe you are holding your breath- breath breath

[crabo]

I cut and pasted all of Bass and 44man's posts and put them in a single document. I got the high lighter out and studied the posts. It makes for some pretty good reading.

[Bret4207]

Wow, a lot of argument over minutiae. I'll ad my 2 cents- I think Veral has the dynamics of bullet action pretty well down in his book. The shock wave in the fluid does as much damage as the bullet or boolit itself, maybe more with more FPS. I don't think Verals/ B+Ms designs (that's where he got the idea for the WFN, I don't care what he says) work any better than the SWC or TCFN. I don't think Elmers claim that the SWC shoulder cuts flesh is accurate, but it does cut bone that I know. Beyond that you can take an LBT, Keith, RD, SWC, FN, WC, TC, WFN, OFN, etc, etc and with good shot placement cleanly harvest game. The rest is just a pissing contest. Brian Pearce is as right as any of the rest of us.

[fatnhappy]

Geez, you'd think they were wearing kevlar. Stick any of the above in the slats and follow the blood 50 yards.

A better case for an argument might be clip or drop point knife.

[runfiverun]

i like the drop point actually for all around work. and skinning.
the tanto is pretty good for cleaning.

seriously though i shot a wounded[by car] deer with my 30 carbine revolver and a rnfp boolit
with the outrageous weight of 98 grains and the outstanding velocity of 900 fps.
when we cleaned her out i was impressed with the damage that little boolit had caused
to the internals, there was 3" of damage through the lungs and a quarter sized exit hole.
fluid dynamics at work here? definately.
there was bruising at the entrance and exit wounds.
and a very dead deer after it went 20 yds.

this just confirms what i have learned about using cast for hunting.
shot placement, and pass through ,are more important then boolit weight .
did the flat point of this boolit help? i believe it did. based on the "autopsy".
the entrance wound didn't bleed a drop, had this boolit stopped inside the animal it easily could have escaped into the brush to die.
after hollow pointing and shooting my 45 colt at different velocities and with different types of hollw points, i'll take the flat point with it's CONSISTENT results.

[GLynn41]

wow in importance this ranks up there with the bail out--not only that we are repeating ourselves-- a little i am going to have a mold HPd ----will it kill yup -- but it would kill before
yup -- so why -- --looks good --- i can-- it is a Keith type btw--will it be as Consistent---maybe not --will it be fun yup--it seems that deer are not only 10' tall and bullet resisitant -- they have learned which bullets they can ignore -- I am joking of course-- this is a very learn ed thread we have read