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Thread: A take on the Whitworth

  1. #1
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    A take on the Whitworth

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    Need to pick the collectives mind a bit guys,hope youīre ok with that. I had my heart set on picking a Whitworth up (and indeed just recently did) but got homed in by this sort of natural successor to it,the Westley Richards so called Monkey tail short rifle.

    It is a 1:20 twist 45cal gun itīs just that as its father it doesnīt use regular rifling but is instead running an octagonal bore (in contrast to the Whitworths hexagonal).
    To the point where Westley Richards has "Whitworth rifling" inscribed to their barells.

    The Monkey tail then being a sort of breech loading take on the Whitworth.

    Anyways. I bought this as a shooter,and indeed a shooter i got. Gun had been "restoed" at some point and then to a level where even much of the markings are gone,so this is a gun for doing what i see fit to dwell on whatīs there to be found accuracy and performance wise.

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    The "bolt" is actually sort of a lid that houses a plunger that is shoved rearwards by combustion pressure and by angled surfaces of the plunger and rear most part of the receiver locks up.

    Gun was designed for use with paper cartridges,and these were like "knee jointed" just behind their bullets why these cartridges sort of "fold" in place.
    Well. To hell with that so i drilled the chamber out and fabbed a high end steel chamber insert for 45-90 cartridges. This rendered that i had to elongate the receiver end somewhat and thus modify plunger range and what not too.

    As is though weīre at the point where it all works and this still with the original setup percussion cap and hammer setup. The 45-90 Starline cases has had a "flame channel hole" drilled about midships and the whole thing works very very well.
    Thus iīm now able to reload on a press with all that brings as far as seated depth and what not.

    Now.
    The bore is octagonal within right and measures 0,451" across the "lands" and in turn 0,483" across its shoulders. The little iīve fired the gun thus far has been with a simple LEE 450/405 assisted by a slightly oversize 45 cal greased wad,and this seems to seal the bore up nicely behind said bullet (AFAIK thus far at least).

    That said i guess you can grasp that the playing rules in this case are a little different,which is why i want to ask you guys advice.
    Seeing the octagonal bore (which is in A ok shape btw) thereīs no real rifling to "jump" et al which i guess is why iīve gotten away with using full soft lead bullets (HBN approx 2 or so),but that of course hasnīt stopped me from thinking what if..

    I PRESUME that the full soft bullet expands somewhat but also assume that the actual final sealing is by that there said greased slightly oversize felt wad.?

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    Cartridge is thus indexed as well. A small tab at the rim and cutout of said rim of cartridge makes for the flame channel lining up with whatīs sent from the percussion cap.
    The whole contraption works rather well.
    In turn iīve spent a bit of time setting plunger movement,why as of current plunger movement comes in at less than 1mm. You can barely close the lid/bolt and lockup upon firing is about instant. Ie;cartridge basically doesnīt move at all,all things considered.

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    For the purpose of ruling MY errors out as best as i can iīve for now equipped the thing with a rather high power scope. This will be replaced with a more purpose and era correct Lyman,Litschert..whatever..down the road. One thing a time though.

    As is i can sure see what iīm doing.

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    I havenīt gotten to fire all that many rounds through the thing yet,seeing the development work invested in making this in effect a 45-90 gun,but the few i have have shown great promise.
    The two there were shots No 3 and No4 on my behalf,and then at 100 meters.

    Said starline brass.
    70 grains of Wasag 3F
    Over shot card (12mm piece of milk carton)
    A 36cal dry 1/8" felt wad (to create distance to..)
    A "45 cal" greased wad.
    459/405 LEE boolit. Full soft. Completely stock mold.

    So in essence what you see there is the first ever load i just dreamed up,and the rifle seems to take to it.

    Now.
    What i wonder is if itīs likely iīll see any performance difference from going up in HBN? Thinking along the lines of 10 or so.
    In turn iīll certainly dry other molds as well,the Lyman postell included,and wonder what to expect from that? In short,how "poor" performing would you expect that full soft LEE to be in this case?

    Of course any other ideas,tips and trix to aid this endeavour of mine is certainly welcome too. Speaking of which,as i mention above,i just bough Whitworth serial C832 too and as iīve had my heart set on that for quite a while weīve already CNC machined a swaging/press die to make them hexagonal boolits.
    Then again,the Whitworth is a front stuffer while this Monkey tail is certainly not. Ergo,many claim good results with the Lyman PH mold when talking "volunteer" rifles but then again..them are normally of conventional rifling,one way or another,no matter if Metford,Henry,Gibs et al while the Whitworth is not.

  2. #2
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    unfortunately you've bubbaed that fine rifle up. Lots of folks would have been willing to pay some good cash for it. me included. Those are hard to find.

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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by crankycalico View Post
    unfortunately you've bubbaed that fine rifle up. Lots of folks would have been willing to pay some good cash for it. me included. Those are hard to find.

    https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/brit...rums/index.php
    Couldn't agree more. What a waste.
    Last edited by fgd135; 12-17-2018 at 03:31 PM.

  4. #4
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    Pity you see it like that.
    As stated,it was ruined from a collectors perspective as i got it,but thatīs on the other hand not really what iīm asking is it?

    So the original question stands. Ideas as far as performance?

  5. #5
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    I have a friend who shoots a Whitworth muzzleloader and what Bob has learned is to stay with soft bullets. He unfortunately does not have the hexagonal bullet mold. He uses the classic 405 gr., 458 bullet cast of straight lead and they do bump up to fill the rifling, according to him. A harder alloy quite possibly would not. I don't believe the wads are doing much to seal the bore. Powder gases and particulate will blow by them in short order.

    Seeing as how there are so few of them, even with what you said was heavy buffing, the action was still intact. I couldn't have done what you did but, it is your rifle, so enjoy it.
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  6. #6
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    Actually it wasnīt,which was the reason for the insert.
    As i inspected the thing the chamber had a crack in it,so an insert was the obvious solution. Even the "rail" for the plunger was molested,down to the screws holding it to its lid stretched beyond use.
    Btw,youīre right. There were 66k made. So what i did here was to decide between scrapping the thing (read-make it into a wallhanger) or..what i did to make it a usable rifle again. A no-brainer in my book, but to each his own.
    And no.. It wasnīt merely "buffed". It had been sanded to the point where thereīs no legible markings to read anymore apart from the very heavy stamped serial basically. Well..partly true. You can to the letter vaguely read "made by Westley Richards" on the bolt lid. Any and all "whitworth rifling", caliber and chamber stampings and what not though,gone. Heavy rebluing canīt very well hide that so.. Stock in turn,the "spots" you see are from wood bondo. Rear sight on backwards.. aso aso aso.
    So no. This rifle wasnīt just "buffed". Very very far from it. The correct nomer is that it was molested,which is why i got it. IMO a perfect candidate to dwell on what the true performance of this rifling will bring.

    Thanx!
    Now this is useful. So in essence full soft bullets are to be preferred before alloy ones? There you go... The stock setup uses an oversized greased wad to work against the brass front most plunger part to make the wad expand and thus seal the chamber. A setup that works rather well.
    I hear you on lead cutting,which is what i presume is what youīre getting at? In the case of the MT itīd be way harder to use a "form to fit" octagonal bullet seeing itīs a breech loader. From what iīve gathered the stock bullet was a bore rider,a patched such. Ie; a bore rider with a drive band. 400 and a tad over 500 grains depending on if intended for the carbine or rifles.
    Last edited by Racing; 12-17-2018 at 05:32 PM.

  7. #7
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    I like it!
    Warning: I know Judo. If you force me to prove it I'll shoot you.

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    Proper Bullet.......

    A "Hexagonal" bullet would give you the best results. A mould is currently available.

    550 gr, 0.442" across the flats, 1.375" OAL.

    RRR
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    the general rule of thumb on them is that, if the chamber is actually cracked, it is not safe to use. So in essence your trying to make a wall hanger into a hand grenade...

  10. #10
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    Rick, he said the bore on his rifle was octagonal. May I ask who is making that mold and if you know how expensive it is? I don't know if my friend is aware of that or, if he is, the cost might have put him off. He says he gets very good results with the conventional bullet in his Whitworth. Sure would be fun to play with at long range.

    Racing, I have no experience with the Whitworth. What I mentioned was what Bob told me and I find it really difficult to believe he would make that up or lie about it. When shooting BPC rifles it is known that black powder will bump up soft lead projectiles. There is a niggling doubt in my mind that smokeless doesn't have the same result. I'm reluctant to come right out and say that but I do believe I read that in a comprehensive article by Venturino. On the face of it that doesn't makes sense to me but evidently, somehow he proved it.
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  11. #11
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    ...*sighs*
    If you say so. Look. Iīm no newcomer to this. Insert-s (thereīs two of them,one for 45-90 and one stocker) are made out of Swedish SIS 2541 tool room steel. In plain english that means that the inserts in them selves have no use for the surrounding metal left really,and would handle the task at hand stand alone- no worries.
    At that of course the crack has been looked into and handled accordingly. That said i concour that when pulling work like this off youīd better know a thing or two as far as metallurgy,which i happen to do.

    That said,this is getting a bit tedious. Can we now PLEASE be done with coming down on me "ruining" the rifle (which i obviously am not the master of. That first pic up there is how the gun was advertised.) and PLEASE leave my knowledge of FEM analysis and what not aside as an engineer. This is not the first time iīve sleeved a chamber,and most likely not the last either.

    I asked a few specific questions with the best of intentions and very little has been said on the subject so far. If iīm out on a limb for real,let me know so. Not any more difficult than that. I shoot,and i shoot a lot of blackpowder. This though is uncharted territory for me,as i guess many others on here,which is why i ask. Polygonal,hexagonal or octagonal rifling isnīt exactly the norm these days but sure is part of our small arms history.
    Iīve never dealt with a hexa or octagonal rifle before and thus ask to avoid any real pitfalls,if there are any.

    So far whatīs been said is that the use of all soft lead bullets might be a good idea. Thank you tons for that,and that will bring that iīll fill several molds with just that to see where it takes me accuracy wise.
    What weīve touched on though is,basically,bullet fit to the bore. Well,that stands to reason. Bore being octagonal of course brings a few peculiaritys to the mix,again..which is why i ask.

    IOW one of the questions in this case would be how to fill up the void with bullets "to small"? All soft lead and bumping..sure. The use of a greased wad will at least help i guess when using bullets that wonīt..and to add to the mix thereīs of course the option of using bullets that fit the bore mechanically. Like the Whitworth.
    The so called PH mold by Lyman has been reported to work well with the Henry rifling of late,question therefore also is if anyone has tried the same bullet in a hexa or octa barrel?

    To give you guys an idea of goal here... Club i belong to bottoms out at 300 meter,but weīve got a 600 meter range up the road. As to if the rifle can digest both of them,no idea as of now.
    But itīd be neat if i could at least bottom my "home" range out.

    The inherent accuracy of these rifles,as well as the volunteer rifles on a whole and the Whitworth specifically,is fabled. Indeed the few tries done so far by me has been very positive,especially so seeing the very generic bullet mold used.
    The LEE459/405 is normally said to perform decent within 300 meters or so,which i guess stands to reason. The generic 400 grainers have been mentioned,and in this case iīm a little unsure of what to make of it.
    That blackpowder makes very good use of semi blunt projectiles of over 500 grains,generally speaking,is nothing new why iīm going to heat the ladle up and pour some postell ones first chance.
    The carbines (21" barell) were referenced for use with 400 grain bore riding pills and the rifles in turn 500 dittos. What to serve/hand this short rifle that said?
    No idea. Therein lies part of the issue at hand. As much as iīve very kindly been given the reference material for making "stock" cartridges for this rifle very little is to be read on their performance with said ammunition.
    In fact it seems that the replies as far as what to fill the rifle up with is very very generic,and add to that that these rifles could and were muzzle loaded too on occasion.
    Just a matter of shoving a greased wad down the bore first (against all logic) and filling it up that route.

    Some that try and mimic the stock cartridge report,very mildly put,varying results from the mimicked stock cartridges. Accuracy being limited,from the looks of it.
    One of the technical benefits from using the 45-90 chamber insert being that i get to load the ammo up on a press,rendering that i can not only play around with loads but COAL and what not as well. Freebore,btw,iīve tried and keep within specs when turning the insert.
    Freebore and bullet jump isnīt even mentioned in any manner for the stock cartridges,which again..stands to reason i guess seeing theyīre paper ones.
    The stock bullets being PP bore riders though, i PRESUME that the idea is about on par for the Chassepot. Ie;that the stock paper cartridge is supposed to "bottom out" against the rifling as the bullet comes to a rest within the chamber and the foremost part of it comes to rest ON the actual "rifling" (read-it being octagonal).

    The road iīm down here holds more than just this Monkey tail though. As i mention per above i just bought me a genuine Withworth too.
    A so called "best quality" Whitworth out of Whitworth rifle co of Manchester England.

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    In this particular case serial No C832. In contrast to this Monkey tail a rather stock piece,which will stay so apart from just being cleaned out in an anal fashion.
    That said the use of a hexagonal mold has been mentioned above and weīve already,rifle hasnīt touched down with me yet-the Brits are anything but fast when it comes to delivery,CNC machined molds for it.

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    I sincerly doubt however that these hexa bullets will perform anywhere near satisfactory in the octagonal bore of the Monkey tail in case.
    Idea,fwiw,sure is to put a number of era rifles up against each other in sort of a shootout with them all in place and all said and done.
    But..thatīs writing material for another day.

    So.
    For instance. Would it be an idea,at all,to try PP bore riders out in the 45-90 casings and IF so bullets at what HBN?

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    This a 385 grain "stock" bullet for a Chassepot but the general looks of it is close to the stockers for a MT too. Ment to be PP to size and the drive band i guess is for all to see.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by sharps4590 View Post
    Rick, he said the bore on his rifle was octagonal. May I ask who is making that mold and if you know how expensive it is? I don't know if my friend is aware of that or, if he is, the cost might have put him off. He says he gets very good results with the conventional bullet in his Whitworth. Sure would be fun to play with at long range.

    Racing, I have no experience with the Whitworth. What I mentioned was what Bob told me and I find it really difficult to believe he would make that up or lie about it. When shooting BPC rifles it is known that black powder will bump up soft lead projectiles. There is a niggling doubt in my mind that smokeless doesn't have the same result. I'm reluctant to come right out and say that but I do believe I read that in a comprehensive article by Venturino. On the face of it that doesn't makes sense to me but evidently, somehow he proved it.
    Thank you SO SO much!
    GREATLY appreciated.

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    @ Sharps.
    Me too sincerly doubt that a hexa bullet would help out any. Even if we milled an octa form to swage bullets itīd become sort of an index nightmare as the cartridges are still set off with the use of a percussion cap and hammer.
    Ie;the cartridges are indexed vs the chamber already as is to function and the add of an octa bullet would certainly not help as far as indexing.

    The manner in which iīve opted to stick with the stock setup firing system might be unconventional but was arrived on for several reasons. One of being that doing so keeps the gun permit exempt around here.
    As it turns out though it works just as well as setting the thing off from the rear-from the looks of it.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red River Rick View Post
    A "Hexagonal" bullet would give you the best results. A mould is currently available.

    550 gr, 0.442" across the flats, 1.375" OAL.


    RRR
    What was this boolit/mold designed for?

  15. #15
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    All the Westley Richards bullets for their Monkey Tails, whether breech or muzzle loaded, were cylindrical for the octagonal Brunel rifled bore. They were smooth sided (bar the rear, being bore riders) for breech loading. There is negligible information on the muzzle loading ones other than that they used a different mould to the breech loaders. Paper patched in that they were paper cartridges with the bullet dipped in lubricant after construction. They relied upon the base greased wad remaining in the breech and be pushed into the throat when the next round was loaded to clean the bore as it travelled ahead of the nose of the bullet when fired. They were considered accurate in their day as designed. The necking choke behind the bullet is to keep the powder away from the bullet section and keep the bullet tight in its paper. The cartridge paper was 'Yellow Fine' i.e. the same paper as the old Enfield but unbleached and was untreated and intended to be expelled with the bullet which pulled it down the barrel. Being ignited by a percussion cap part way along the cartridge the rear most portion remained attached to the base felt wad and was expelled with that ahead of the next bullet. The round length was such that the bullet nose seating set the length other than a small squeeze as the plunger was lowered to lock the breech. You have decided to use a brass rigid cartridge in a rifle that came with no extractor. I would say that there is no information to guide you on the best bullet other than the period load of black powder. Your chosen arrangement has altered the breech entirely except for the locking so there is no comparison. Nor with other brass cartridges as you are (in compliance with Swedish law) igniting the brass cartridge through a hole in the side of the case part way down. I would say that all you can do is make your best guess. Mine would be a 1:20 mix grease groove bullet of groove diameter seated fully into the throat with the brass cartridge of a length to be able to seat that when the plunger is lowered. But I have no idea if that will work. All I know is that the original system works fine and my Yeomanry regimental forebears won military competitions with their issue 'Westley Richards Breech Loading Carbines'. There is always the Boer farmer's plug and wad seated on the plunger face all, topped with powder and a patched 0.440" ball, all muzzle loaded.

    Westley Richards work with polygonal bores with the younger Brunel pre dates Whitworth's who relied heavily (and with the knowledge of both) upon this earlier work. The "Whitworth Patent' stamping on by Westley Richards was a courtesy and no patent payments were paid.

    I do now wonder if this is one of those Monkey Tails made from parts as Westley Richards stated in 1883 that fake ones were being made in Britain and then traded to South Africa. A reward of Ģ100 being offered for information leading to a prosecution. However, yours does bear the correct proof marks of the day.
    Last edited by yulzari; 12-18-2018 at 10:39 AM.

  16. #16
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    Thx Yulzari,as always.

    Exactly. Educated guesses,but for the moment it is IMO valuable such as it seems thereīs basically nothing to lean into here.

    FWIW i cast some lead/tin alloy bullets today so weīll have an idea of whatīs what shortly. Btw,extraction is manual. A small "ditch" has been cut where a simple screwdriver fits,and thus you just yank the spent case out of there. Crude,but works and works rather well.
    Have given some thought to some sort of extractor seeing whatīs at hand here and it might very well be that iīll "upgrade" the gun as far as that time permitting.

    Iīve spent a good deal of time measuring the Starline 45-90 brass iīve got and..i dunno. As i ignite the powder charge mid ships i get minute cracks along the flame channel hole,which of course would be wise to adress.
    That itīs any sort of safety issue though,forget about it. But. As such iīve looked into the different blueprints for the 45-90 and..iīm currently fabbing a fresh,tighter,chamber for the gun. Simple enough to turn so..
    While at it iīm going to up the outer diameter of the main part of the chamber. Point being that the first 20mm or so is limited to approx 16mm diameter due to the thread present to bolt the receiver and barrel together. However,where the thread ends and the "main" part of the barrel is at iīm going to up to 18mm diameter.
    So the outer diameter will be stepped from 18mm to 16mm. But..the main culprit here no doubt is turning a tighter chamber to support the cartridge seeing how i ignite the thing.

    Bullets.
    As youīre aware iīm no stranger to the "high performance" 45cal rifles of the day and have no intention giving them up. As such it has struck me that more regular rifled guns seems to make full soft bullets go mental somewhere around 400 grains and 55 grains+ of powder.
    At that rate alloyed boolits are called for. Enter poly rifling,where itīd take a helluva push to make the boolits jump anything,why the idea of full soft boolits isnīt beyond scope in my book. Whatīs more..seems thereīs only one way to find out.

    The few boolits i cast today are from 15:1 lead vs tin and then dumped into water. Will check HBN asap (LEE kit is at another club member ATM). No doubt theyīre way harder than the full soft ones though.
    Agreed on the idea of it being a breech loader vs boolits cast to fit that octagonal bore. I sincerly doubt itīll bring all that much,seeing itīs a cartridge gun-no matter how we regard said cartridge.

    Analytical approach in all of this i guessīll be everything. That and baby steps between evaluation of performance. So first up here will be them full soft boolits,followed by a comparsion vs the alloy ones per above.
    Indeed i seat the boolits rather deep in the cartridges. GG ones,of course.

    Canīt but wonder though if thereīd be any benefit to using PP bore riders. For whatever reason this was the norm for the Monkey tail,so to me that means there was for a reason. Indeed a paper cartridge one could very well be it... But trying to set them into a brass cartridge isnīt all that and so done weīll know i guess...

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    Lr mlrs

    .............I have a 2nd Gen Parker Hale Whitworth.



    The Bore/Groove is .451" X .470". I have shot quite a few of the Lyman 475gr 457121PH which is a conical intended for the Volunteer rifle, yet it shoots very well in the Whitworth to about 400 yards. Another slug I shoot, which is also a conical are those I swage and then paper patch. The cup based cores are .447", and then they are paper patched. The swaged/patched (below) are what get shot the most.



    I've never experienced any leading in the bore, so I have to assume they are fully expanding. However I have never been able to collect one after firing. Another LR muzzle loader that shoots very well is a facsimile of a period British rifle from a Pecantonica River kit and a Green Mountain barrel, below:



    It has a conventional 6 groove, 18" twist .450" x .458" bore - groove. It shoots no better nor worse then the Whitworth, in whose barrel the same slug has a LOT more windage to fill via expansion. I don't believe that the original fit of the slug is as important as is the fact that the powder charge and the slugs' temper is compatible. That is, so long as the slug upsets fully and evenly you're good to go.

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    Have a friend who has FIVE real Whitworths, 3 1000 yd and 2 snipers. All shoot just as well with regular boolits as hex ones. Save your time and money.

  19. #19
    Boolit Man yulzari's Avatar
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    89
    For the information of those using the proper paper cartridges. Accurate Molds do moulds for 3 Monkey Tail bullets covering carbines, rifles and target rifles. 47-400B, 47-453B and 47-510B. I have a 'Westley Richards Breech Loading Carbine' (the proper name for a cavalry carbine Monkey tail) which happily uses the 47-400B in a copy of the service paper cartridge.

    Accurate Molds do excellent moulds which can be in aluminium, brass or iron depending upon your taste and pocket. Presumably the finished dimensions vary with the relative expansions of the materials but either this is trivial or is taken into account in the machining. I bought aluminium being tight fisted but would pay out for the brass if I bought another. The aluminium one is fine.

    The paper cartridges are simple to make and should NOT be nitrated and all cigarette papers are too fragile to load and leave ash. The paper has to survive the ignition to be dragged down the bore by the bullet. It divides where the percussion cap flash pierces the paper. The remaining rear stub is glued to the greased felt wad and is pushed out with it when the next round is fired. The greased rear felt wad is integral to the design to both seal the breech and clean the bore.

    The round bullet sets itself into the bore to conform to the octagonal bore. The carbine is a service weapon for a cavalry trooper and was required to maintain a clean bore in all conditions in all climates from the Canadian winter to a Baluchistan summer for all 40 odd rounds carried by the trooper with no cleaning until the action was over. My Yeomanry forebears used this carbine for many years (until they had Sniders passed on by the Regular cavalry) and won service shooting competitions with it. A Boer and colonial Portuguese favourite.

  20. #20
    Boolit Bub
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Green Bay
    Posts
    44
    your experiment in using a 45 90 case in the monkey tail is brilliant. the dogs bark but the caravan moves on.progress moves ahead no matter the criticism it may attract.your admirer.cheers pepe

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check