For all that want a soft boolit

[44man]

or a soft nose boolit in their big bore revolvers for deer! How about a lesson on hard cast, specifically the .44, 320 gr LBT WLNGC. First picture is the entrance.

[44man]

This is the exit. Notice the bloodshot areas on both pictures all the way from the lower chest, under the shoulder and way up the neck.

[44man]

This is the off shoulder when I was butchering. Now explain why anyone would want an expanding boolit or a soft boolit. It would only make a bigger mess. It took me most of the day to clean this up.

[waksupi]

44, I find this very interesting. Having shot a couple truck loads of game with cast, I can never remember having that much bloodshot meat. And really, I see more tissue disruption, than actual blood shot on your kill. I've used calibers from .6.5, through. .45.
I do wish others would post thier autopsy reports, as then we may be able to hunt down the true optimum caliber, for minimal blood shot, and killing effectiveness. Some may see it as morbid. I see it as research.
So far, from my experience, I am thinkng the .35 will be hard to beat. I would like to see some field reports from people using .375, .400, or anything else.

[StarMetal]

45-70 hands down. Hard to beat, puts the animal down, doesn't destroy alot of meat. That's my choice.

Joe

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
With cast I have only used 44 mag in pistol, 250gr SWC air cooled WW, 3 shots=3deer, all at 100yds to 70yds. all went down where they were hit.
The same bullet in the 444 marlin did the same 3 shots=3 deer.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
I agree air cooled WW seem to do just fine in 44 cal. & up.
It would be interesting to see reports on smaller cal. bullets to get an idea of where one would need to actually use a softer alloy.
I'd bet the 41 mag would do just fine with air cooled WW on deer at ranges of 100yds or less.

[44man]

I have taken a pile of deer with the .44, .45, 45-70 and .475 revolvers all with hard cast boolits with large meplats. This was the worst! Even the entrance hole was very large and torn. It gives me a better appreciation of the killing power of the lowly (now days) .44.
The smaller calibers need some expansion but more important is weight so the expanded boolit will penetrate.
I do not own anything smaller then the .44 so I can't discuss the effects. The only thing I remember all these years is that a survey showed deer hit good with the .357 were lost 50% of the time. Due to this research that was done and the many times I had to help friends try to find deer, I have never even thought about buying a smaller revolver.
This deer was as bad as the one I hit years ago with a .280 where the bullet exploded in the chest and sent shrapnel out the other side. Thats when I sold my rifles!
I found that with other then a spine or brain hit, any deer that drops at the shot is seriously damaged. I don't think this is a good situation as far as preventing meat damage.

[9.3X62AL]

Ric--

35 caliber? As in, 357 Magnum from revolver? Be careful--such text can be flammable. I got a Michigan whitetail in 1984 with that caliber, a pre-Enlightenment harvest with the Speer 146 SWC-HP from a S&W 586 x 6". The bullet traversed the critter, and it fell over after a few steps. Short-range shot, about 15 yards, from a tree stand.

How projectiles work to bring down game or halt aggressive action is a subject that gets hotly contested at times, especially when handguns are the platforms being discussed. I think lead RB's, alloy SWC's, jacketed soft point rifle bullets, and broadhead arrows all can harvest game animals--but it's a certainty that each one works in a different way to get the job done. Another certainty is that each wound created by any of these methods is a law unto itself--just too many variables at work skewing the outcomes.

I think the best we can do is to place the shot as accurately as possible on that target (primary) and do the best we can with the load and its projectile to enhance lethality (secondary). This second element would involve the load's intrinsic accuracy to facilitate Element #1, the projectile's diameter and weight along with what Hatcher referred to as "shape factor", and velocity to convey momentum, sustain penetration, and enhance tissue disruption.

It's pretty obvious that any increase in projectile velocity, diameter, and weight is a plus that favors enhanced lethality--but there's a break-even point at which recoil becomes an issue, at least for some of us. Full-house 44 Magnums in a 4-inch Model 29 are about as much of that recreation as I care to endure, and my 44 Magnum is a Redhawk for that reason. Most of its shooting involves 240-250 grain SWC's at or under 1200 FPS, following Elmer Keith's advice that "1200 FPS is all you need" with his boolits in that caliber.

There are a lot of formulae out there that attempt to predict a caliber's field or defensive merits based on calculation. Most of these involve a process where one of the objective measurements--velocity, boolit frontal area, or weight--gets squared to determine the caliber's "value". Staying as close to "real world" as we can......the only one of these three measurements that actually does increase to the square of its linear progression is frontal area. This is consistent with the premise advanced by Thompson/LaGarde and Hatcher, and although its motivation was to justify adoption and continuation of use of the 45 ACP service pistol, it is interesting to note that part of the research process involved the shooting of live stockyard cattle to assess the effects of the loads in question. The conclusion that a large caliber, medium to heavy weight projectile at slow to medium velocity did the best work on live targets while transmitting tolerable recoil remains valid to this day.

For field/hunting venues, I think the Thompson-LaGarde-Hatcher findings can be combined with increased velocity (to flatten trajectories) to arrive at some loose conclusions about caliber selections for cast bullet hunting. Using these guidelines, the 41 Magnum, 44 Magnum, and 45 Colt certainly qualify for deer hunting purposes. I would add the 10mm and 357 Magnum if the hunter is willing to pass on any shot not offering both close proximity and good angle. In all cases, boolits should be appropriate to the task--wide flat nose or SWC profile, and minimum SD of about .200.

[waksupi]

When I say .35, I speak of the .35 Remington, .35 Whelen, .358 Winchester, rather than pistol caliber. If I was going to use a .357 mag., it would certainly have a fairly heavy cast bullet in it, and I'm sure it would do the job in reasonable range, with good placement.
I don't know if there is a Holy Grail for a hunting caliber/cartridge. I've killed bucks with the 6.5 Swede, with bullets flying along at around 1700 fps, with excellent wound channel. And I know thirty bores, 8mm's, .44, .45's all work, as I have taken game with all bore sizes. I guess maybe I've answered my own question, as all have worked effectively, as long as the bullet is placed in the proper location.

[9.3X62AL]

Gotcha.

That 9.3 x 62 with the 270 grain round flat nose going 1700 FPS should do some good work--it's basically a 36-06 with shoulder blown forward 0.1" or so. I'm looking forward to seeing what the rifle will do with these castings now that good glass is installed atop it.

[45 2.1]

Alot of people on this forum have taken very large piles of deer. No one way did them all in. Some of us have found out how to drop game and not mangle that game up. Those little 357 mags have taken alot to. It depends more on where you hit them than what you hit them with (as long as its appropriate for what your doing). Each to his own, but if you tell me yours is the only way, then you will soon be talking to yourself.

[StarMetal]

I know alot of you have taken deer with the 357 mag, but in my opinion and quite a few gun writers that are hunters, it's anemic. I've had quite a few personal friends that have used it and don't anymore. Before you jump on me remember alot of deer have been taken with lesser rounds...like the 22 rimfire for example, or the 25-20. If I had to pick one handgun for deer hunting, it sure wouldn't be a 357 mag.

Joe

[Bullshop]

I gotta tell ya that when you put the lowly little 357 mag in a sealed breech like a 94 Marlin or some such without barrel cylender gap it is one potent little package with capabilities far beyond what its miniature stature would suggest. I also recall from my ancient past a couple deer dropping in thier tracks to a 6" L frame when the L frame first hit the streats. I was single with paycheck and just had to have one of those.
I dare say if for some reason I were limited to posess only a Marlin 94 357 mag we here at BS headquarters would not go without meat!
BIC/BS

[StarMetal]

Dan,

I agree with your theory on the 357 in a rifle. Let me say too that if I only had my 541-S Remington custom sporter 22 rimfire I too would not go without meat!!! Would you agree a 35 Remington is better then a 357 mag rifle?

Joe

[versifier]

IMHO, it takes a shooter with the self control to refuse to take a shot at too long a range or at a marginal angle to make the .357mag, or any smaller handgun or rifle cartridge work to kill cleanly. A man may well have the marksmanship skills to be able to hit targets at very long ranges, but that doesn't mean that he should try such shots on live game. I see it as more of an ethical question. If a quick, clean kill cannot be assured, I have NO BUSINESS pulling the trigger. I think the .357mag in a handgun has no more practical range on deer than a bow, 25-30 yards, and needs the same degree of self restraint to use it both ethically and effectively. Would I use it? Yes, and I have when I had to. Are there better choices? Of course there are, and I use them now that I can.
It's like the old story about the dynamite shack. The lightbulb was burnt out, so the guy lights a match to find what he needed. He gets out without mishap. Just because he didn't get blown into the next county, doesn't mean it's a good idea, or that he should feel good enough about it to try it again next time. A smarter man would bring a flashlight and replace the bulb, or at least leave the door open....

[StarMetal]

...and it should be an approved explosion proof flashlight too!

Joe

[Bret4207]

44- What velocity did the boolit hit at, estimated of course, and would you have a photo of one of the boolits? Hard cast or dead soft may not make much difference if the velocity is such that the so called "hydro-static shock wave" effect forces fluids into the meat and between the tissues. I would think a hard, flat faced .430 boolit at, say, 1350 fps would cause just as much destruction as a .358 cal WW boolit traveling slower, but expanding to the same .430, at least at exit. Could be the larger diameter and hard alloy doesn't allow any displacement of the lead as the boolit enters the skin, causing the fluids to precede the boolit and force them through the meat. Regardless of the alloy and hardness you got the deer and made a fine shot too by the look of it.

Beyond the bloodshot tissue, I've sometimes found a softer alloy works better in certain guns. I always thought it was a matter of the bore sealing better or that particular barrel otherwise responding better to the softer alloy, usually straight WW. Plus, I'm lazy and straight WW doesn't require blending. Water cooled WW has worked better in some rougher barrels, so I know a harder alloy can make things easier for some guns. Maybe the day will come when I'm in need of some linotype type hardness, but not yet. Your sucess and the accuracy you've achived sure does make me think long and hard about trying some harder boolits though.

[David R]

I was once told by a man that teaches guns and shooting.

"If you want to kill a man, you have to shoot him where he lives" He was talking about heart, lungs, head, neck........

I agree 100%. Same goes for deer. My personal opinion, for a handgun if the caliber starts with a "4", then its a good one.

[Bullshop]

Well Joe I wouldnt say the 35 Rem is better across the board I would only say better for some things. On the same token I would also have to say the 357 mag would be better for some things. The bigger one better for bigger things the smaller one better for smaller things, but both good for deer the smaller one being slightly more limited as to range. If you compair the little mag with what at one time were considered top notch deer slayers like the 44/40 and 38/40 I dont see the 357 as lacking in comparison. Deer havnt gotten any tougher since then but hunters have largly lost the ability to hunt in comparison.
I seem to recal reading in Verals book that he was using a Marlin 94 in 357 mag for elk and he felt that with HIS WFN design and hard enough to resist expanding the package was more than adiquit.
You would probably be surprised to know how populer the 35 Rem is here with native villigers for moose. As I said bigger for bigger. The most populer with villigers by far is the 30/30.
If you have access to a Marlin 357 mag try in it the Lyman 215gn SWC/GC. IT was designed for the 357 max but realy turns the little mag into a performer in both accuracy and penitrating power.
BIC/BS