4fg swiss BP and 45 long colt revolver

[indian joe]

So getting back here ... srry for the tardyness ... I went back up and read the original post and indeed we are answering the original question ... pertaining to 4Fg powder ... not the n.1 swiss ( do not know what N.1 is ).

My impression is a discussion of using 4Fg Swiss powder in place of 3Fg Swiss.

Allow me to add this as a comparison for you;

I loaded compressed loads of Ol E powder in 40 grain loads. I used 3Fg and 2Fg granulations and discovered a valuable lesson in felt recoil and flattened primers [ indicating beginnings of pressure signs ] in my 2nd gen Colt SAA infantry length barrel (7.5 inch ) revolver topped with that same Lee 255 grain flat round nose boolit.

If you doubt the varasity of this load ... I suggest you obtain some/ load some in 2Fg Swiss or Ol E powder [I understand these powders are very close in speed and power] and take a sound revolver to the range and report back your impression of the power of these ORIGINAL Colt loads.

Bear in mind that the 4Fg powder questioned in your first post is an entire different and MUCH faster powder then the original powder that was used in these revolvers.

I fear a diet of the 4Fg in these old style Colt and aftermarket revolvers with concern that hands and bystanders of those shooting a 4Fg powder load. This is simply my answer to the question posted in the OP here.

Still not sure about what the N.1 Swiss powder translates to in American powder sizes.

12-30-18 is awhile back and seems like we have moved past this. However I for one would like a revisit to it and find level ground as well as agreement as to the safety of shooting 4Fg powder in larger then a 31 cal BP revolver.

Ted
No I wouldnt do it (FFFFg) in a 45 revolver - I posted earlier we had used FFFFg in a 357 mag - that was a sound Rossi 92 rifle - have also used it in a 32/20 - both very nice results
Why ???? simple ----homemade powder - not tryin to goose anything up - gotta find a home for the FFFFG or else recycle it back

The Swiss at 35 to 65 mesh is not FFFF either -- 40 to 100mesh is different stuff altogether thats a whole grade finer again.

Your right about those original loads - try 40 grains in a 44/40 revolver - we did it under a 225 boolit - changed a few ideas at our local pistol club - guys thought them ole fashioned cowboy gunz was all smoke - punkin rollers

[bigted]

Joe ... yes those original loads were for sure not lite weight rounds. It is testament of the why of the US army asking and getting a lighter load in 45 Colt being (I believe anyway) 35 grains powder and a 230 grain boolit ... still stout enough in its own rite.

I have never had nor fired a 44WCF yet. I have purchased loading dies for it tho as I am rebuilding my new style Winchester 92 with a bulged barrel back into a lined 44WCF. Need to return to that project and get my barrel lined so I too can play with the 44 WCF.

I much prefer the old original chamberings to the new ones.

[mazo kid]

I have not, nor ever will, load ffffg in any gun (well maybe my NAA 22 BP revolver as that is designed for it). From what I have read, because it is a very fine grained powder, pressures will be erratic and inconsistent, not conducive to accuracy, let alone safety.

[Good Cheer]

In the 1860's war production there was much variation in loadings. The elongated boolits used in percussion revolvers reduced the powder space. Apparently using more energetic powder in the reduced available volume was sometimes the way they done it. And then again sometimes they used FFg in the prepackaged paper cartridges.
Me, I use what I have and make it work.

[Jeff Houck]

Does anyone have chronograph data comparing 3f and 4f in the 45 colt? In all the discussions I've never seen any real live data presented.

I also wish someone with a transducer pressure set up would volunteer to do some pressure testing for us.
BIG SIGH

[bigted]

I would welcome these facts as well. Seems time to begin factual provable facts rather then Idle speculation. Personally I would prefer all would abstain from using 4 Fg powder, aside from prime in a flintlock, till some real facts are established. The risk is just too high to shooters and bystanders.

[Oyeboten]

If we expect "4F" to be iffy or worse for over-pressure effects, let's not forget, please don't ever try and use the old time Photographer's "Flash Powder" in any kind of Firearm!

I have read though that some .41 RF Factory Loaded Cartridges used a mixture of 3 and 4 F, but it did not say what the proportion was.

Probably that was done for some other Cartridges as well back when.

I myself would not use 4F in anything but Magnum Cartridges.

3F is indeed plenty stout for anything Hand Gun wise which was originally loaded with it.

Original Spec for BP .38 Special, longer Barrel of course, was 950 FPS with the 156 Grain RNL Bullet.

No slouch there.

.45 Colt original Black Powder round, with the usual longer Barrel length of the day, ran about 1050 FPS and 255 Grain Bullet.

That' a whallop for whatever it hits..!

[John Boy]

Is it safe to use the 4fg swiss BP with the same loads instead of the 3fg?

The round was originally loaded with a 255-grain lead bullet over 40 grains of FFg black powder for a velocity of about 900 fps (out of the issue SAA's 7½-inch barrel).

[Jeff Houck]

The following information come from this book: Lyman Black Powder Handbook,C. Kenneth Ramage, editor, 1975
It would be worth peoples time and effort to get this book for their library. There is also a second edition out, but I've not been able to browse thru it for BP pressure data. Both books are available thru Amazon.

It lists 3f AND 4f loads for 31, 36, 44 and 45 caliber handguns using C&H and Goex powders, with both RB and bullet. The 36 and 44 listings give pressure data. All pressures are so low that they were measured in LUP, ie lead unit pressure rather than CUP which is copper unit pressure.

44 cal., 8" barrel, 155gr bullet #450229
28gr. G-O 3f gave 861 vel, 8820 LUP
28gr. G-O 4f gave 885 vel, 8480 LUP

28gr. C&H 3f gave 785 vel, 6080 LUP
28gr. C&H 4f gave 862 vel, 7220 LUP

44 cal., 8" barrel, 138gr. RB
37gr. G-O 4f gave 960 vel, 7420 LUP
37gr. C&H 4f gave 943 vel, 6820 LUP

45 cal Ruger Old Army, 7 1/2 barrel (no pressure data for this one)
190gr. #45467, 33gr. G-O 3f gave 780 vel
190gr. #45467, 33gr. G-O 4f gave 863 vel

190gr. #45467, 33gr. C&H 3f gave 709 vel
190gr. #45467, 34gr. C&H 4f gave 898 vel

There is lots more data for the 31 cal., 36 cal., and the 44 cal., all showing the same low LUP levels for 3f vs 4f.
So here is data from Lyman that supports using 4f powder in cap and ball revolvers.

Hope this helps, Jeff

[Castaway]

Originally, the factory load for the 45 Colt was 30 grains under a 250 grain bullet. During development 40 grain loads were considered in testing but were not an issued cartridge. Shortly afterwards, in mid 74 the charge was reduced to 28 grains, the same as the newly adopted Smith revolver. The 40 grain load was a civilian cartridge used later in the life span of Colt’s SAA

[Chill Wills]

The following information come from this book: Lyman Black Powder Handbook,C. Kenneth Ramage, editor, 1975
It would be worth peoples time and effort to get this book for their library. There is also a second edition out, but I've not been able to browse thru it for BP pressure data. Both books are available thru Amazon.

It lists 3f AND 4f loads for 31, 36, 44 and 45 caliber handguns using C&H and Goex powders, with both RB and bullet. The 36 and 44 listings give pressure data. All pressures are so low that they were measured in LUP, ie lead unit pressure rather than CUP which is copper unit pressure.

44 cal., 8" barrel, 155gr bullet #450229
28gr. G-O 3f gave 861 vel, 8820 LUP
28gr. G-O 4f gave 885 vel, 8480 LUP

28gr. C&H 3f gave 785 vel, 6080 LUP
28gr. C&H 4f gave 862 vel, 7220 LUP

44 cal., 8" barrel, 138gr. RB
37gr. G-O 4f gave 960 vel, 7420 LUP
37gr. C&H 4f gave 943 vel, 6820 LUP

45 cal Ruger Old Army, 7 1/2 barrel (no pressure data for this one)
190gr. #45467, 33gr. G-O 3f gave 780 vel
190gr. #45467, 33gr. G-O 4f gave 863 vel

190gr. #45467, 33gr. C&H 3f gave 709 vel
190gr. #45467, 34gr. C&H 4f gave 898 vel

There is lots more data for the 31 cal., 36 cal., and the 44 cal., all showing the same low LUP levels for 3f vs 4f.
So here is data from Lyman that supports using 4f powder in cap and ball revolvers.

Hope this helps, Jeff

Here are Lyman pages for the 44 Round ball and of course a 45 C&B is not a 45 Cartridge and not a 255gr bullet. Good info non the less.

[Chill Wills]

I'm not sure that 15-18 grains of FFFg under a wheat filler in a 45 Colt is much of a problem but I have no data to back that up either. To each their own.

Standing next to that at the public range or standing next to some Bubba and his handloaded 338 whizzbang is about the same in my mind.
Some of these goofballs on the highway trying to kill me while I am going to the public range are definitely scary too.

[Larry Gibson]

As of late, in my travels, I have acquired a pound of GOEX FFFFg powder. I intend on pressure testing (Oehler M43 PBL and Contender test barrels) loads in the 32 S&WL, the 357 Magnum, the 44 SPL, the 44 Magnum, the 45 American, 45 Schofield and perhaps the 45 Colt.......pressures permitting. That should answer a lot of questions and prove suppositions right or wrong.

[indian joe]

The following information come from this book: Lyman Black Powder Handbook,C. Kenneth Ramage, editor, 1975
It would be worth peoples time and effort to get this book for their library. There is also a second edition out, but I've not been able to browse thru it for BP pressure data. Both books are available thru Amazon.

It lists 3f AND 4f loads for 31, 36, 44 and 45 caliber handguns using C&H and Goex powders, with both RB and bullet. The 36 and 44 listings give pressure data. All pressures are so low that they were measured in LUP, ie lead unit pressure rather than CUP which is copper unit pressure.

44 cal., 8" barrel, 155gr bullet #450229
28gr. G-O 3f gave 861 vel, 8820 LUP
28gr. G-O 4f gave 885 vel, 8480 LUP

28gr. C&H 3f gave 785 vel, 6080 LUP
28gr. C&H 4f gave 862 vel, 7220 LUP

44 cal., 8" barrel, 138gr. RB
37gr. G-O 4f gave 960 vel, 7420 LUP
37gr. C&H 4f gave 943 vel, 6820 LUP

45 cal Ruger Old Army, 7 1/2 barrel (no pressure data for this one)
190gr. #45467, 33gr. G-O 3f gave 780 vel
190gr. #45467, 33gr. G-O 4f gave 863 vel

190gr. #45467, 33gr. C&H 3f gave 709 vel
190gr. #45467, 34gr. C&H 4f gave 898 vel

There is lots more data for the 31 cal., 36 cal., and the 44 cal., all showing the same low LUP levels for 3f vs 4f.
So here is data from Lyman that supports using 4f powder in cap and ball revolvers.

Hope this helps, Jeff

Jeff -- good info - kinda backs up my musings on the C&H versus GoEx - you would have to wonder about the pressure read on the 28gr GoEx FFFFg in the first test - that would fit the picture nicely if it read 9480 LUP instead of the 8480 - is that a typo maybe??

[bigted]

Showing my ignorance here ... what is the comparable difference between LUP and CUP as opposed to PSI?

Larry, will watch with interest in your findings ... was hoping you would take interest in this subject.

[Jeff Houck]

Jeff -- good info - kinda backs up my musings on the C&H versus GoEx - you would have to wonder about the pressure read on the 28gr GoEx FFFFg in the first test - that would fit the picture nicely if it read 9480 LUP instead of the 8480 - is that a typo maybe??

I wondered about that too. Perhaps a typo on their part when they wrote the book. I'd like to see the second edition to see if it had changed.

[Castaway]

Interesting

[Larry Gibson]

Showing my ignorance here ... what is the comparable difference between LUP and CUP as opposed to PSI?

Larry, will watch with interest in your findings ... was hoping you would take interest in this subject.

LUP and CUP are essentially the same method using the same test equipment. The difference is a lead pellet is use instead of a copper pellet because at low end pressures (<10,000 psi) the copper pellets aren't crushed (actually riveted) consistently. The lead pellets are crushed more uniformly and a tarage table for them is used to convert the amount of "crush" to pressure. Many, if not most, older shotgun loads were pressure tested using LUP.

[bigted]

Rite on. Thanks for the explanation. Look forward to your findings concerning pressure with the 4Fg powder in comparison to 3Fg and/or 2Fg of the same powder manufacturer and maybe same lot numbers ... but for sure pressure of 4Fg powder in larger (45 Colt) chamber.

[35 Whelen]

I'm interested to see Larry's findings when he pressure tests 3F vs. 4F. I recall reading in Keith's SIXGUNS that he "ground" black powder to the consistency of flour and loaded it in his 45 Colt's, although I don't recall the context.

It bears mentioning that the Pietta which the OP is using is a far cry from great-grandpappy's Colt SA. The Italian revolvers are required to be proofed to 130% of standard pressures, which for the 45 Colt would be around 18,000 psi.

35W