4fg swiss BP and 45 long colt revolver

[Claudius]

Hi all, I have a Pietta 1873 SA revolver and I got a lot of fun shooting cartridges loaded with 26grs of 3fg swiss powder and .452 255grs boolits from a Lee mold. Is it safe to use the 4fg swiss BP with the same loads instead of the 3fg? I ask you this because the 4fg BP is faster and I don't want blowup my hands! Thank you for your help.

[725]

No. Use nothing finer than FFFg. FFFFg is for pan ignition in flintlocks. It would be dangerous as a revolver charge.

[Loudenboomer]

can you use 4F .....(FFFFG) black powder in a 45 colt?
Don't do it. Search this thread on here a few months back.

[Claudius]

Thank you for your replies, I have read that old discussion but I didn't get any clarification on this topic, so I went to the site of the Poudrerie Aubone (the BP swiss producer), and I found some more info about the "mesh" of the several types of BP: http://www.blackpowder.ch/powder/shooting-powder

It seems to me that the US FFFFg is 40-100 mesh and the nr. 1 swiss BP is 35-65 mesh, so you can see that they are not the same and the swiss nr. 1 has larger grains. Also I found some shooters that are using loads of nr. 1 swiss BP from 15 to 18 grains (with semolina fills) for their 44/40 and 1858 Remington revolvers. So I'll give a try starting to use this nr. 1 swiss BP with my 1858 cap&ball Remington Uberti, it is a very strong revolver and I hope that it will lead me to right and safe loads for my Pietta 1873 SA. I'll let you know what will happen (finger crossed, not blowed up).

[Claudius]

I tried this morning the #1 swiss BP in the 1858 Remington Uberti before loading cartridges 45lc for the Pietta Colt 1873 SA, I loaded 27 grains with a 200 grains conical boolit from a Lee mold. The shooting was safe and comfortable and very accurate at more than 20m (imho), it was a beautiful experience. The revolver was more cleaner than before, when I used other coarser BPs. Lubing with 1p of beeswax, 2p tallow and a bit of olive oil.
Here a video of my first 6 rounds:


So I can tell you that the #1 SWISS BP is safe in the cap&ball revolvers, let's see what will happen in a 45LC cartridge the next days.

[greenjoytj]

Why do you want to use such a fine granulation in such a large bore muzzle loader?
The finer granulation will just spike the pressure faster. Why stress the firearm?
Conventional wisdom has the finest grade of BP used in small caliber firearms and priming flintlocks/matchlocks.

[kokomokid]

The #4 swiss for Europe is sold as 1 1/2 swiss in the US. The #4 very fine Swiss sold in the US would be for flash pans and 22 rimfire.

[Nobade]

The #4 swiss for Europe is sold as 1 1/2 swiss in the US. The #4 very fine Swiss sold in the US would be for flash pans and 22 rimfire.

Yes, the numbering method Swiss powder uses is confusing to us Americans. The powder we get is re-labled so we can understand it here.

[Claudius]

Why do you want to use such a fine granulation in such a large bore muzzle loader?
The finer granulation will just spike the pressure faster. Why stress the firearm?
Conventional wisdom has the finest grade of BP used in small caliber firearms and priming flintlocks/matchlocks.

I didn't find so many differences from the swiss #2 (barely FFFg), and my revolver wasn't stressed at all, so it is possible to use this #1 swiss BP safely for a 44/45 revolver. I have old shooter friends that are using the swiss nr. 1 for years without any problem. I like to use it because it shoots very well with so low dirt.

[indian joe]

Thank you for your replies, I have read that old discussion but I didn't get any clarification on this topic, so I went to the site of the Poudrerie Aubone (the BP swiss producer), and I found some more info about the "mesh" of the several types of BP: http://www.blackpowder.ch/powder/shooting-powder

It seems to me that the US FFFFg is 40-100 mesh and the nr. 1 swiss BP is 35-65 mesh, so you can see that they are not the same and the swiss nr. 1 has larger grains. Also I found some shooters that are using loads of nr. 1 swiss BP from 15 to 18 grains (with semolina fills) for their 44/40 and 1858 Remington revolvers. So I'll give a try starting to use this nr. 1 swiss BP with my 1858 cap&ball Remington Uberti, it is a very strong revolver and I hope that it will lead me to right and safe loads for my Pietta 1873 SA. I'll let you know what will happen (finger crossed, not blowed up).

I think 35 to 65 mesh powder would be safe and appropriate in cap and ball revolvers - we have used proper FFFF (40 to 100mesh) in 357 mag cases without incident or signs of it

[bigted]

I always wonder the why of trying to gas up these revolvers. They are perfection used with 2 or 3 Fg powder. Never any problems and economic to shoot. If set up correctly accuracy is just exelent.

So my question [ meaning no disrespect in the least] why?

[indian joe]

I always wonder the why of trying to gas up these revolvers. They are perfection used with 2 or 3 Fg powder. Never any problems and economic to shoot. If set up correctly accuracy is just exelent.

So my question [ meaning no disrespect in the least] why?

Ted - I agree - these guns are fun just how they were intended - I have never shot anything other than round ball in them despite the urging of many around me and plenty on this forum - again why? round ball is tops for accuracy and convenience of loading why mess about with boolits ?

couple of points to my post
1) 35 to 65 mesh is only a tad finer than FFFg - last century we used bags of Goex 5FA that screened pretty close to those numbers so for my money the Swiss that started this is not really FFFFg (40 to 100mesh is a different critter I think)
2) 357 magnum loaded with black I reckon we were gassing it down quite a bit - its a fine BP round tho.
in any of this if common sense is lacking then trouble will be the end result.

[John Boy]

The #4 very fine Swiss sold in the US would be for flash pans and 22 rimfire.

I reload 22 LR primed empty cases the fastest Swiss Null-B, 4.5 grains. Chrono 1040 with excellent ES and SD's

[Dave T]

The OP asked about loading the "45 Colt". That's a cartridge, not a cap-n-ball revolver. Some of you guys need a reading comprehension course. (smiley face goes here)

And based on my years of loading and shooting the 45 Colt (cartridge) in single action revolvers, including original 1st Gen Colts, I would not use FFFFg powder, what ever it's called across the pond.

Dave

[Good Cheer]

Using boolit molds and sizing the back half of the boolit a few thousandths smaller is easy enough with percussion revolvers. So much simpler than messing around with those brass cases. And once they start down that slippery slope, why next your boolits won't even be lead. It's madness I tell you. Stop while you still can!

[Claudius]

I tried to load .45 cartridges for my Pietta 1873 SAA with 22grs of #1 swiss BP, filling the gap with the semolina (1/16" compression), 255grs boolits from a Lee mold. I used a small Lee reloading kit and I shot 5 cylinders.
The shooting was comfortable and I didn't have any problem, the brasses came out normally and I can reuse them, it's just necessary to adjust the loads for the best accuracy. I'm thinking to add some lube in front of the cylinder (the 255 grs boolits have rather shallow grooves, good for smokeless powder but not for BP), like in my 1858 Rem, in this way the fouling remains softer and you can shoot the entire session without cleaning the barrel. I remember you that here in Italy I'm not the first one to use the #1 swiss BP in .45 cartridges, this is just a normal option. Here a short video of the shooting, your opinions and advices are welcome:

[bigted]

Yes i have comprehension skills that have gotten me through 62 years of life ... thankyou very much! I also trust my eyes and ears and when i see and hear a feller using 4Fg powder in a Remington new model army , i comented on the why of "gassing" them up.

I did not forget the original post for a second concerning the 45 Colt round.

Still cant figure the why of trying to goose either revolver into something it is not intended to do. Just purchase a modern magnum built revolver and have at it.

My post is simple ... i have been shooting cap n ball's as well as 45 Colts for a good many years and i maintain that they work very well indeed with 2 and 3 Fg black powder.

Many men and animals have wound up dead with these revolvers and many a meal has been served as a result of these revolvers shooting the 2 and 3 Fg loads.

Guess i am just gettin old. I just ask why is all. Been askin why all my life ... it is how i learn things.

[Claudius]

Why the n. 1 swiss BP? Because it is faster and cleaner for our handguns, it is not like using magnum loads and smokeless powder, it is just finer black powder with typical black powder pressures. Also the swiss manufacturer indicates the n. 1 good for handguns like .38 and .45 calibers. The real US 4fg is a different business.

[bigted]

So getting back here ... srry for the tardyness ... I went back up and read the original post and indeed we are answering the original question ... pertaining to 4Fg powder ... not the n.1 swiss ( do not know what N.1 is ).

My impression is a discussion of using 4Fg Swiss powder in place of 3Fg Swiss.

Allow me to add this as a comparison for you;

I loaded compressed loads of Ol E powder in 40 grain loads. I used 3Fg and 2Fg granulations and discovered a valuable lesson in felt recoil and flattened primers [ indicating beginnings of pressure signs ] in my 2nd gen Colt SAA infantry length barrel (7.5 inch ) revolver topped with that same Lee 255 grain flat round nose boolit.

If you doubt the varasity of this load ... I suggest you obtain some/ load some in 2Fg Swiss or Ol E powder [I understand these powders are very close in speed and power] and take a sound revolver to the range and report back your impression of the power of these ORIGINAL Colt loads.

Bear in mind that the 4Fg powder questioned in your first post is an entire different and MUCH faster powder then the original powder that was used in these revolvers.

I fear a diet of the 4Fg in these old style Colt and aftermarket revolvers with concern that hands and bystanders of those shooting a 4Fg powder load. This is simply my answer to the question posted in the OP here.

Still not sure about what the N.1 Swiss powder translates to in American powder sizes.

12-30-18 is awhile back and seems like we have moved past this. However I for one would like a revisit to it and find level ground as well as agreement as to the safety of shooting 4Fg powder in larger then a 31 cal BP revolver.

[Springfield]

The hotter you load your gun the faster it will wear out, generally speaking. So unless you are really needing that extra power, why do it. I one experimented with my Tanfoglio 9mm Action Express with a custom Bar-Sto barrel, and finally managed to get a 125 grain bullet going 1700 fps, chrongraphed. Sounded like a shotgun when I used it at our indoor range at work. Didn't blow up the gun, but no way was that a recommended load. It would bury itself halfway through a bullet proof vest, had to dig it out. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.