38 S&W case from 9mm parabellum

[uscra112]

Outpost75 has no cause to be envious of anybody. He's forgotten more than all of us put together ever knew.

Radical reformation of brass for a legitimate purpose is laudable. People make shells for early Maynards because there is NO parent brass whatsoever and never will be. I made .22 Lovell from .223 for some whiles for the same reason, until (for a few years) we had Jamison/Captech making it's parent case. Even $150 a hundred beat the hours of work I was putting in to make just 20, and I for one gladly paid it.

But brainstorming how to make .38 S&W from 9mm, when high quality new .38 brass is for sale from Starline is an utter waste of neuronic energy. Save it for something worthwhile. That's not ridicule; it's just common sense.

[reddog81]

There's lots of stuff that can be done, however that doesn't mean it's a good idea. 38 S&W from 9x19 cases falls squarely into that category.

[one-eyed fat man]

A pre-Victory British Service Revolver, the "UNITED STATES PROPERTY" stamp on the top strap indicates it was a Lend-Lease gun.



NEI #169a bullet over 2.0 grains of Bullseye, reputedly a duplicate of the .38-200 service load. A tad high with a 6 o'clock hold but nicely centered.

[country gent]

I believe that I would section one of each case length wise, 38 S&W and 9mm. compare and measure internal webs and wall thicknesses before getting to involved. Another thing is to measure water capacity between the 2 and compare. 9mm being a more modern case may be thicker case walls with a heavier taper to them than 38 S&W. This would further reduce case capacity in an already small case. Some of the heavier bullets produce a ring or bulge in 9mm brass due to the internal taper.

Adding a rim can get tricky and be labor intensive. In the surface it doesn't sound like a lot. but I'm not sure you could just solder it on since this would anneal the case head. You could possibly turn head down (original rim plus extractor groove to a straight surface make a rim that was "thick" and a .002-.003 press fit. then face to true and turn to dia on the case. Some cartridge conversions can be very intensive as to labor and set up.

Moon clips are an interesting concept and may work. The ring could be machined from the correct thickness of spring shim stock ( not cheap) . OD would be just under cylinder dia. 6 holes on cylinders chambers center line. then center bored to leave a little over a half hole so cases snap in and are held. Most moon clips are made with a press and stamping die.

A quick option for use if capacities are right is a bag of E clips to fit on the 9mm cases in the extractor groove in the right thickness, or to thick and machined to thickness. Here a set of pliers would need to be made to remove and install the clops for loading. A rid to fit in case and a jaw to hold clip to remove or put on. This might be your best option for what you want to do.

[Traffer]

The instructions on the link show how to actually swage a rim onto a rimless case. That is what I thought was pure genius. It would crush a ring of brass so that the inside diameter would constrict to the outer diameter of the extraction groove. I also thought it was interesting that the adding of a rim to a 3006 case allowed the mouth of the 3006 to be opened to where there was no shoulder at all. Since the case now chambered on the rim and not the shoulder, it allowed the case to taken up to a 44 caliber which I believe is a straight walled case.
I believe you are correct in thinking that the 9mm is probably thicker brass especially in the head and web. Since these old guns were designed for black powder the capacity is far greater than necessary. So I believe it would be an advantage to have a thicker web making it a stronger case for the conversion to smokeless powder. That was actually another consideration for swaging rims onto 9mms.
A normal moon clip, being made of spring steel would be beyond my abilities to make. But since the only real need for spring steel on the thing would be the place where the cartridges would "clip" in, perhaps one made more to be a spacer indexing the cartridges by the extractor groove. would work satisfactorily.
But alas. I am going to take the "advise" of the nay sayers and just get me some 38 S&W brass. (for now)

[Traffer]

If you don't cast your own load 148 HBWC with 2.5 grains of Bullseye seated to 1.20" overall cartridge length. The hollow base expands to fill the larger grooves and ballistics are like a .38 Special wadcutter. Will shoot to the fixed sights of the old guns and more effective than factory LRN.

It sounds like an opportunity for a heeled boolit. I think the old rimfire 38's were heeled. I wonder if the first 38 S&W cartridges had heeled boolilts? Since I swage heeled boolits for 22lr, I could apply the same technology to the 38 and make me some heeled 38's.

[Kenstone]

The instructions on the link show how to actually swage a rim onto a rimless case. That is what I thought was pure genius. It would crush a ring of brass so that the inside diameter would constrict to the outer diameter of the extraction groove. I also thought it was interesting that the adding of a rim to a 3006 case allowed the mouth of the 3006 to be opened to where there was no shoulder at all. Since the case now chambered on the rim and not the shoulder, it allowed the case to taken up to a 44 caliber which I believe is a straight walled case.
I believe you are correct in thinking that the 9mm is probably thicker brass especially in the head and web. Since these old guns were designed for black powder the capacity is far greater than necessary. So I believe it would be an advantage to have a thicker web making it a stronger case for the conversion to smokeless powder. That was actually another consideration for swaging rims onto 9mms.
A normal moon clip, being made of spring steel would be beyond my abilities to make. But since the only real need for spring steel on the thing would be the place where the cartridges would "clip" in, perhaps one made more to be a spacer indexing the cartridges by the extractor groove. would work satisfactorily.
But alas. I am going to take the "advise" of the nay sayers and just get me some 38 S&W brass. (for now)

Moon clips could be made via a 3-D printer...

Lots of shooters/reloaders have 3-D printers and have made other things, but I'm not one of them.

[Outpost75]

Say, Outpost75.......do you have any proven loads for the .38-200? (which for the peanut gallery is the British .38 S&W case with a heavy bullet, meant for the wartime Webley revolver.) I'm using 1.6 of Bullseye, for a somewhat anemic 600 fps. Bullet from an NOE mould, cast almost dead soft, about 40:1.

Ask and you shall receive:

Velocity Comparisons Webley & Scott .380 Mark IV vs. .38 Colt New Police Positive

Ammunition:_____________________4" Webley MkIV_____4" Colt Police Positive

Fiocchi 146-grain LRN factory load____750 fps, 19 Sd______794 fps, 14 Sd
Cdn. DC43 Mk2z 178 FMJ___________577 fps, 8 Sd_______618 fps, 19 Sd
Kynoch 146 grain LRN______________650 fps, 22 Sd_____685 fps, 22Sd

Accurate 36-155D, 2.1 grs. Bullseye___640 fps, 8 Sd______671 fps, 11 Sd
“______________, 2.5 grs. Bullseye___710 fps, 16 Sd_____756 fps, 11 Sd

Accurate 36-178D, 2.1 grs. Bullseye___595 fps, 10 Sd_____601 fps, 18 Sd

Ideal #358430____1.7 grs. Bullseye___513 fps, 11 Sd_____.360 front band would not chamber in Colt

Accurate 36-201D, 2.1 grs. Bullseye___601 fps, 12 Sd_____612 fps, 20 Sd

NOE 201-gr. Mk2, 2.1 grs. Bullseye____609 fps, 12 Sd_____629, fps 15 Sd

In my S&W Victory Models, S&W Model 32-1 Terrier and Ruger India Model Service Six
I use 2.5 grains of Bullseye with 190-grain Accurate 36-190T

Several Accurate designs are tailored especially for the .38 S&W:

Attachment 233607Attachment 233608Attachment 233609Attachment 233610Attachment 233611

[salpal48]

If I recall there is or was a 9mm Federal

[9.3X62AL]

In the S&W M&P and the Webley-Enfield DAO I have in 38/200, I use the 202 grain NEI #169A (sized .363") atop 3.0 grains of Unique or 3.3 grains of Herco. These print where the sights look at 25 yards from the S&W.

In the Colt Police Positive x 4" (sized @ .359") and S&W Regulation Police (sized .361") I use an NOE #358477 (150 grains) with the above powder weights. Both revolvers place hits where the sights look at 25 yards.

Starline cases get the call for all the above loadings. Dimensional tolerances are wide in revolvers and in cases made in this caliber. Do yourself a favor and stick to one make/lot of cases to save yourself some head-scratching.

[KenT7021]

9mm Federal was mentioned in post #3.No longer made.

[uscra112]

Thanks, Outpost! My mould is a hollowpointed 363-200-RN, which was catalogued as specific to the Webley/Enfield. Using the deeper of the two pins makes a bullet that actually does weigh 200 grains +/- 1 after lubing, in an alloy that's about 1:40.

Seems like I'm in the ballpark, but for all those loads you posted I'd want to know the seating depth. Loads like this are awfully sensitive to that. My OAL is 1.220, but that can't be compared with your 36-201 without knowing the exact length of the respective bullets. Need to get more time with my Chrony, too.

I see that I mis-stated my charge weight in my earlier post. It's 1.9 grains, not 1.6 grains. Sometimers is getting bad.

Cheers !

[Outpost75]

Thanks, Outpost! My mould is a hollowpointed 363-200-RN, which was catalogued as specific to the Webley/Enfield. Using the deeper of the two pins makes a bullet that actually does weigh 200 grains +/- 1 after lubing, in an alloy that's about 1:40.

Seems like I'm in the ballpark, but for all those loads you posted I'd want to know the seating depth. Loads like this are awfully sensitive to that. My OAL is 1.220, but that can't be compared with your 36-201 without knowing the exact length of the respective bullets. Need to get more time with my Chrony, too.

I see that I mis-stated my charge weight in my earlier post. It's 1.9 grains, not 1.6 grains. Sometimers is getting bad.

Cheers !

Here is drawing of 36-201D

Attachment 233614

Seating depth is 0.325" at 1.22" OAL.

[uscra112]

I'm seated .336 deep, which was arbitrarily chosen. Next lot I load I'll go only to .325. There's plenty of room at the front of the cylinder. Then maybe I can up the charge.

Just running that difference in Quickload I see a pressure drop of about 2000 psi.

Too cold for range time now, even at the house, AND it's snowing! Hope I am spared until Spring.

Those Herco and Unique charges would be way over 100% charge density with my bullet & .325 seating depth. Not to mention that the QL model puts them at 50k psi. 2.3 maybe?

[Billthomas]

First try on a 06 case worked great. Thanks again

[Traffer]

First try on a 06 case worked great. Thanks again

Very cool. What are your plans for a rimmed 3006? Gonna make it a straight wall 44?

[Billthomas]

I built a sharps Borchardt and bought a barrel from Les Bauska before he passed, I had it made with a .412 bore and planned on making a .410 rifled slug gun for Michigan deer hunting, well they changed the rule book. basically I have a .405 Winchester chamber but slightly oversize, I may be able to use headed 06 brass as its nominally .010 larger at the head. I can get .405 brass for a buck apiece which would save a lot of work, it's listed as .460 at the head but you never know until you get it, some of my 06 brass measures undersize. I have four builds this winter, a Sharps 75, another Borchardt a 1885 Win and one of my designs but haven't been able to post because of the picture compression, wish they could build that into the web site.

[Mike H]

Years ago,our local mechanic told me that during the war there were 38 revolvers but not much ammo to play with so someone found that 9mm ammo would fit,the rim problem was solved by squeezing the rim of the 9mm round a trifle in a vyce.This worked until guns started to blow up and the practice was banned.

[Traffer]

I built a sharps Borchardt and bought a barrel from Les Bauska before he passed, I had it made with a .412 bore and planned on making a .410 rifled slug gun for Michigan deer hunting, well they changed the rule book. basically I have a .405 Winchester chamber but slightly oversize, I may be able to use headed 06 brass as its nominally .010 larger at the head. I can get .405 brass for a buck apiece which would save a lot of work, it's listed as .460 at the head but you never know until you get it, some of my 06 brass measures undersize. I have four builds this winter, a Sharps 75, another Borchardt a 1885 Win and one of my designs but haven't been able to post because of the picture compression, wish they could build that into the web site.

You can get around the picture compression by uploading your picture(s) to dropbox or Amazon photos and creating a link then posting the link. It is kind of a pain but I do it a lot, especially for emailing pictures because there is a size limit on email pictures also.
I don't know that much about the older guns but I find them fascinating and am learning.