idiocy of the gun industry

[crankycalico]

They've always touted the basic military AR as the ideal starting gun, easy to use, low recoil, cant screw it up, and iron sights to get you going.

Now the manuals always expect people to know how to set the sights up, and to know how to get the proper sight picture without ever using iron sights before, and very little in the manual...

SO why do they want us to get the basic rifle, with basic irons circa Vietnam, and then NEVER want us to get a rifle with iron sights on it again?

[am44mag]

They've always touted the basic military AR as the ideal starting gun, easy to use, low recoil, cant screw it up, and iron sights to get you going.

Now the manuals always expect people to know how to set the sights up, and to know how to get the proper sight picture without ever using iron sights before, and very little in the manual...

SO why do they want us to get the basic rifle, with basic irons circa Vietnam, and then NEVER want us to get a rifle with iron sights on it again?

There are a ton of iron sight options for ARs and other gun types with rails. Lever actions and single shots have always come with iron sights and probably always will. Most people want a scope on their guns though, especially their bolt actions which is the main type of rifle I've seen sold without sights at all. None the less, some bolt actions still come with iron sights.

You can't really blame the industry for producing what most people are wanting.

[MUSTANG]

There is also the issue of an aging society (Baby Boomers getting to retirement/medicare age). Many shooters who have the wherewithal to purchase multiple firearms are in their 50's plus; and are experiencing difficulty of seeing without aid so they choose Scopes.

Of course; there is also an element of our society who have NO KNOWLEDGE of iron sites and they see the variety of generic "Red Dot" sights and Scopes as the baseline of how to aim a firearm. A parallel to the Smart Phone addiction.

[WILCO]

Every man is a rifleman.
Woman included too.
That being said, with any endeavor it would behoove one to do some basic research.
Should one source of information be lacking, there is another which isn't.
In today's whiz bang age of information, the answers are there.

[GARD72977]

Where did this idea come from. No one I talk to has this mentality. Most new guys start off with a scoped 22 or hunting rifle.

[crankycalico]

well perhaps before 2015 a lot of writers seemed to suggest to the masses that an ar in standard military sights was the perfect thing to learn how to shoot on. And it is good.

However that's an issue when the only option for a bolt action with sights is to put up with something that comes with crappy shotgun sights meant for 100 yard or less.
Sure lever actions come with peep sights, buckhorns, etc. But the whole lever action segment has been denigrated to "cowboy reenactment" by the industry itself, and to "short range hunting only, 100 yards at best".

the NRA matches and Camp Perry PROVE the old military sights kick *** still. Why does the industry deny us that right?

You can use the cell phone analogy, of course they wont make a cell phone they don't think they can sell. They control the market demand itself. Its like ford in 1930 saying "americans only want black paint on a ford because we haven't sold a car in any other color. Because we haven't made a car in any other color"

[country gent]

Now even the NRA rifle matches allow a scope. Ive shot a lot of iron sights at distance ( out to 1000yds) the sights used by competitors are very good accurate and repeatable but some cost almost as much as a factory rifle. Back in the late 80s my warner rear sight with out appeture was $475.00 the adjustable appeture was another $100.00 and the front gloge with adjustable appeture another $150.00-$200.00. This is why most competitors had several rifles but one set of sights. I wouldn't want to subject this sight to the rigors and rough handling of hunting.
The manufacturers have a price point they have to maintain and on a off the rack rifle it has to be a solid rear sight that's is rugged enough to hold up to the rough handling. One thing the military sights did do very well.

I believe every shooter should be profiecent with iron sights Appetures, notch and bade, along with scopes. Unlike High Power shooters most hunters and plinkers adjust sights for different ranges or wind. They set rifle to a know distance and use Kentucky elevation / windage for changes. Where as the true target competitor knows the settings for 100yds, 200 yds 300yds ect keeps a score book with these settings and adjusts for each range on the sight or scope. Same with wind they know no wind zero on sights and adjust for given conditions as needed.

[Omega]

Where did this idea come from. No one I talk to has this mentality. Most new guys start off with a scoped 22 or hunting rifle.

Blame the ammo shortage and gougers, that made the 5.56 cheaper to shoot than the .22 LR. Give it awhile, it will go back to .22 unless we have another shortage.

[9.3X62AL]

I did not have military experience, but grew up shooting from a very young age. Iron sights were the rule for me, and still are to a large extent. I have scoped rifles, but glassware is found on about 30% of my long arms. There are no optics on any of my handguns, and I have no plans to add scopes to my short guns. I think highly of the aperture sight system on my AR-15's A2 upper half, and several coyotes have been permanently impressed by the stalwart aperture sights found on my Mini-14, to 225 yards in one instance.

[MaryB]

Iron sites are kinda self explanatory for the basic ones that come stock on some rifles...

AR popularity is due to ergonomics for new shooters, soon as my nieces and nephews graduated to center fire I taught with an AR and a scope because it can be more accurate with practice.

And ALL my rifles are scoped... 58 year old eyes and bifocals...

[frkelly74]

My Daisy had open stamped metal sights and I managed to shoot sparrows, break beer bottles and could hit a pie plate that my dad threw up in the air reliably. He was quite amazed at the pie plate feat. He was not so thrilled about the broken beer bottles. I found them to be quite intuitive to use and a good learning tool. I can still use open sights quite effectively.

[Petrol & Powder]

They've always touted the basic military AR as the ideal starting gun, easy to use, low recoil, cant screw it up, and iron sights to get you going.
...................

I guess "They" in the above statement is the gun industry as a group?

And then the OP writes, ".....SO why do they want us to get the basic rifle, with basic irons circa Vietnam, and then NEVER want us to get a rifle with iron sights on it again? "

I'm not sure I agree with that supposition. I think "They" (the gun industry) is trying to sell firearms - period. It's the consumers that want to buy AR platforms.

A better question would be, "why do consumers buy some rifles with iron sights and some without iron sights ?"
The gun manufacturers make what sells. It is the consumer that dictates what the gun industry makes.

[elmacgyver0]

I just buy what I want and don't worry too much what they write about or what anyone thinks.

[Ickisrulz]

They've always touted the basic military AR as the ideal starting gun, easy to use, low recoil, cant screw it up, and iron sights to get you going.

Now the manuals always expect people to know how to set the sights up, and to know how to get the proper sight picture without ever using iron sights before, and very little in the manual...

SO why do they want us to get the basic rifle, with basic irons circa Vietnam, and then NEVER want us to get a rifle with iron sights on it again?

There are tons of sources on the internet that explain how to use the AR iron sights. Why waste money on printed materials?

I wouldn't refer to AR15/M16 sights as "basic." They are fantastic sights.

[mold maker]

If you have tired old eyes that no longer focus, no iron sight is the answer. On the other hand, if your eyes retain their youth, any iron sight is reasonable. Don't blame the sight, they don't age. Peep sights certainly help, but it's a stop gap that will eventually fade. Get and use what you need now, and into the future.

[Three44s]

Hmmmm, I was not aware of any manufacturer cohercion!

The Ar/223 may have snatched the limelight away from 22 rim due to ammo pricing /availabilty for a while but that pendulum is getting back to a more normal status ....

My lens on how to use sights might be a bit traditional it would seem as well. I grew up with irons, buck horn, rear leaf and aperture. I quickly found aperture much better for my most hunted quarry back in those youthful days, ground squirrels.

Once my eyes fell off the cliff, optics were not very optional anymore. But predator hunting caused a transition for those hunts long before the eye/cliff thing happened.

As far as the issue on how to use and adjust the iron sights, my teacher for how to hunt and adjust and care for guns as well as firearm safety ... my father ... covered that. Finer points were picked up here and there .... but lots of iddy biddy things were gathered by experience, much of that while flinging lead down range at paper, inanimate objects and game.

If I have missed something or been bamboozled by some fat dude in some ivory tower of gun makers along the way, I fail to see it nor am I worried about it.

Now I do have a small gripe with gun writers that had to dump on large caliber revolvers and reading their near universal nannyism about the 44 Mag. I spent my best years believing that the 44 Mag was too much for me. At age 41 I felt forced to conquer this “great beast” of a cartridge because there were reports of a grizzly hanging out on our summer cattle range.

What I did not realize was how much handloading (which I began at age 19) can change the character these big revolvers and that the recoil of full power was more of a perceived problem that melts away with time and practice with gentler loads.

A good magazine article about that went sorely lacking.

Three44s

[am44mag]

Now I do have a small gripe with gun writers that had to dump on large caliber revolvers and reading their near universal nannyism about the 44 Mag. I spent my best years believing that the 44 Mag was too much for me. At age 41 I felt forced to conquer this “great beast” of a cartridge because there were reports of a grizzly hanging out on our summer cattle range.

What I did not realize was how much handloading (which I began at age 19) can change the character these big revolvers and that the recoil of full power was more of a perceived problem that melts away with time and practice with gentler loads.

A good magazine article about that went sorely lacking.

Three44s

I have to agree with you on this. I always though that the 44 mag was this untamable beast of a round. That is, until I shot a 4" 44 mag at a meet and greet for another forum. Even full house loads are not that bad. After some training, they're actually enjoyable. Especially if you're a bit of a recoil junkie like me. It wasn't long before I bought a rifle in that caliber, then a 6" 629. I probably shoot more 44 mag than any other round. It's so versatile and easy to load for.

[gnostic]

I have to agree with you on this. I always though that the 44 mag was this untamable beast of a round. That is, until I shot a 4" 44 mag at a meet and greet for another forum. Even full house loads are not that bad. After some training, they're actually enjoyable. Especially if you're a bit of a recoil junkie like me. It wasn't long before I bought a rifle in that caliber, then a 6" 629. I probably shoot more 44 mag than any other round. It's so versatile and easy to load for.

I'm still without the feeling in a couple of my fingers as the result of shooting stiff handloads of 296 powder and 320 grain bullets from a SBH and Dan Wesson. I think it depends on how many of them you shoot in a day.

I've never shot better than 3.5" with any rifle with iron sights. At a hundred yards, the sights on a SBH cover about 18" of the steel silhouette targets I shoot at. And yes, I use a 6 o'clock hold...

[Rick R]

I don’t understand the question(s).

Plenty of military manuals, ex-military individuals and youtube videos that can show how to set up the sights on an AR shaped rifle. And plenty of AR shaped rifles with rails for scope or red dot sights.

Most rifles come either with irons and/or drilled and tapped for your choice in sighting apparatus. Once upon a time that wasn’t universal.

At 59 I took two deer this year with peep sighted rifles. Next year my goal is at least one with a handgun with ironsights. I want to get that done again before I get too old.

[Moonie]

well perhaps before 2015 a lot of writers seemed to suggest to the masses that an ar in standard military sights was the perfect thing to learn how to shoot on. And it is good.

However that's an issue when the only option for a bolt action with sights is to put up with something that comes with crappy shotgun sights meant for 100 yard or less.
Sure lever actions come with peep sights, buckhorns, etc. But the whole lever action segment has been denigrated to "cowboy reenactment" by the industry itself, and to "short range hunting only, 100 yards at best".

the NRA matches and Camp Perry PROVE the old military sights kick *** still. Why does the industry deny us that right?

You can use the cell phone analogy, of course they wont make a cell phone they don't think they can sell. They control the market demand itself. Its like ford in 1930 saying "americans only want black paint on a ford because we haven't sold a car in any other color. Because we haven't made a car in any other color"

I've looked through your posts, you do a lot of complaining about things. A good bit more than contributing. You are certainly living up to the first part of your name lol.