Modified Lee 7/8 oz. Slug Mould ~ Brenneke'ized!

[MusicMan]

Power of Positive Thinking!!!

It doesn't work! If it did there would already be a wall.

[longbow]

Okay then... I finally made it to the range! Yay!

We had a decent day today and it runs out some people have driven up to the range so there wasn't too hard a slog through the snow. Just follow the tire tracks. We peasants don't get keys to the gate so have to climb a bout a 100 yard long fairly steep hill which is why I've been waiting for decent weather to go.

Enough chit chat! Its been a long time since I got shooting but its done... or some of it done anyway.

I decided to travel light so only took the Brenneke'ized 7/8 and 1 oz. Lee slugs and two ball loads. Got more to test next time out!

Details:

- gun is smoothbore Mpossberg Slugster with 18 1/2" barrel with rifle sights
- all hulls were Federal field hulls with paper basewad 2 3/4" and roll crimped
- attached wads were two punched 1/4" hard felt with polyethylene punched disks on each side

- 7/8 oz.: modified Lee 7/8 oz. slug with post added to drive key and felt and plastic wads screwed on; weight 440 gr.; one wrap of printer paper to snug slug up in wad/bore fit
- wad Winchester yellow 1 1/4 oz. wad
- Powder: SR4756 @ 34.5 grs. (Lee dipper volume)
- Primer: Federal 209A

- 1 oz.: modified Lee 1 oz. slug with post added to drive key and felt and plastic wads screwed on; weight 483 grs.
- wad: Winchester yellow 1 1/4 oz. wad
- Powder: 33 grs. SR4756 (Lee dipper volume)
- Primer: Federal 209A

25 yard accuracy was good for the 7/8 oz. and acceptable for the 1 oz. Pics attached.



Hmmmm the 1 oz. pic is turned. Oh well!

50 yard accuracy was... well... not good! No pics attached. Holes through the target were nice and round at both ranges so no apparent wobbling of slugs. I did have some trouble with the rear sigh picture again and I will take some of the blame for bad 50 yard groups but not all. I can't blame the gun either I don't think because I added a 0.005" brass shim between barrel and receiver to tighten the fit up which it did very well. It is now a snug push fit.

Shim pic:



I had also filed the rear leaf a little deeper and wider for better visibility but it needs a bit more. And I inadvertently left the rear sight high so the gun was shooting about a foot high at 50 yards which meant I had to aim at a lower target on the same paper but that really should affect group size.

I only shot one group of three for each of the slugs at 25 yards thinking that the 50 meter groups would be better based on what I got at 25 meter. Wrong! 25 meter groups were high but not bad groups. It took me a few shots to realize how high they were going at 50 yards and that group size was large.

I shot 10 of each from the bench along with the 2 ball loads which I'll report on in that thread.

Recovered wads look great so no issues there but I'll look closer just in case.

Not quite sure what went wrong but am guessing the the felt and/or plastic wads just aren't consistent enough or maybe not lined up just perfect even though they were screwed to the slugs in a close fit tube.

Nonetheless, it was good to get out shooting and the holes were round so I will do some more work and load and test these again. They've got potential and are pretty easy to make.

The load was reasonably stout and I couldn't detect any differences in recoil or performance so I have to think the load is decent.

I did find one wad that had a petal folded in during seating of the slug so that wouldn't help. I'll have to be more careful when seating slugs. Having said that I think I only assembled one or two loads by seating wad then slug. After I pushed the slug into the wad then seated the whole works. This was probably the first one or two I put together.

I'll give these another go to try to improve 50 meter performance.

Longbow

[Hogtamer]

Kent, glad you got to burn some powder! And I like that shim. While I don't own a Mossy anything that tightens up a little sloppiness has gotta be a good thing. Don't be discouraged because of the Lees. They are really frustrating. Even with a good session going you can get the unexplained couple of flyers. After I started loading the Lymans I've had no desire to return to the Lees even though I killed a deer and a handful of hogs with them. Pack along some of your .678 RB loads next time and get that rifled choke finished!!

[longbow]

Hal:

It was good to burn some powder alright! It has been far too long!

I'll be doing more testing of these as they are pretty easy to make and if the wads are consistent and attached in line they should be very Brenneke like.

I'm betting the attached wads just aren't consistent enough. Im using a gasket punch and some wads "squirm" a bit when being punched so have a slopey shape on the cut edge.

Yes, I have to make a jig to sharpen my rifling cutter and make shoes to stabilize the rifling head or make a multi tooth cutter.

In the mean time I'm thinking seriously about getting a fully rifled barrel for the Slugster. I am liking this Mossberg!

[W.R.Buchanan]

OK you done good. You've got to make a drill jig so you can get your holes in the wads dead center. Does your lathe have collets?

I drilled all my BW12 wads with a 1/16" pilot hole using a 47/64 collet, and those big slugs with a #19 drill to clear the #8 screws in the same collet. I know all of these are Dead Center.

Hell you're an engineer figure out a jig to get them right on. How about boring a hole the same size as the OD of your wads Like 1/4" deep in some material preferably metal, and then in the same setup drill a 1/16 hole for the drill to go thru.

I just know you'll figure this out and we're waiting!

Randy

[Markopolo]

Any day at the range is better then the best day at work.. good for you!!!

[Cap'n Morgan]

The holes are round, meaning the slugs are stable in flight. I suspect the Winchester wads somehow interfere with the release of the slug. You could try cutting the petals partly off at the bottom to aid the wads in opening up. (I still think full-bore slugs is the way to go with a smooth bore)

[tomme boy]

Did you shim the magazine tube yet? If not then you are wasting your time.

[longbow]

"Any day at the range is better then the best day at work.. good for you!!!" I am with you there!!! Retirement can't come soon enough! Just a few months to go now.

Randy... My wads are drilled in a jig. I think the problem is more in the punching. The felt sometimes "squishes" to one side as it compresses under the hand held gasket punch and that leaves a tapered slightly uneven circumference on the wads. They are not as cleanly and consistently cut as I'd like. I'm thinking the drill press idea so rotating and guided as the punch is cutting. I also want to add a needle in the center to poke through the exact center of the wads at the same time.

Yes, Cap'n I am with you there. I like loading wad slugs but I have to think that the wad is another variable and that full bore is better. I will be modifying my full bore TC slug mould to add a post and try these felt wads on a full bore slug. I will also try the Randy/Petander/BT approach using the cushion leg screwed to the slug from the nose down.

I have so much to test now I don't want to keep changing things because I'll be chasing my tail (or maybe I am now so want to stop!). What I have been trying to do is repeat some of the success full slug loads with some minor tweaks though I have to admit that I have introduced a few totally new slugs and methods lately. DOH! I am my own worst enemy!

I have to get an order into BPI for some full bore felt and cork wads, full bore gas seals and some other stuff. I was trying to avoid building wad columns for full bore slugs but if I use the attached wad method I should only need a couple of filler wads between gas seal and slug so not too difficult.

tomme boy... no, I didn't shim the mag tube but now that you have reminded me I will get to it. The barrel shimming did tighten things up noticeably though but I'll do the mag tube as well. Thanks for reminding me.

Of course another variable here is that I was using the Slugster this time where in the past I've done all my testing with my single shot gun. I had planned to take both but didn't want to carry both up the hill to the range, in the snow, in my pajamas, on a dark and stormy night... I wanted to use the Mossberg because I like it but I really don't know where it shoots yet so not the best of ideas.

I've got lots more slugs cast so there will be more to come!

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

What exactly do you shim on the Mag Tube? It just screws into the receiver.

Since the sights are on the barrel I really don't see how the barrel being slightly loose can affect where the gun shoots. It should shoot to the sights, shouldn't it?

I can see if the rear sight was mounted to the Receiver that would make a difference.

Randy

[longbow]

"What exactly do you shim on the Mag Tube? It just screws into the receiver." My question too! I didn't think of it until after. I was thinking Remington style with the ring sliding over the mag tube but yes, the Mossberg screws into the end ot the mag tube and since shimming mine seems very solid.

Seems to me someone (maybe tomme boy?) commented about shimming between barrel and mag tube? I'll read back to see if that comment was in this thread or another and just what it was. That shim certainly tightened my gun up as is though.

There is a tab on the back of the square hole to help push the shim into place with the barrel. Otherwise it would be really hard get the barrel in place with the shim. A pop can shim went in quite easy and tightened things up some but it was very thin and delicate so I replaced it with thicker brass.

Longbow

[tomme boy]

On the Mossbergs mag tubes once the barrel is mounted there is a gap between the barrel and the tube. What you want to do is make a washer to take up that space. The barrel seats up against the receiver so it can not go any farther into to the receiver. So you measure the thickness between the front of the mag tube to the front of the barrel lug.

And you can actually "tune" your barrel by the thickness of the washer. I found this out with a 20ga mossberg I had. I had a bunch of shims for clocking a muzzlebreak. They were of varying thickness. It just depends on how far you want to take this.

Along with the receiver shimming and pinning some barrels to the receivers is other ways to make these guns shoot more consistently. Most of these barrels are just hanging there and not mounted solid. Look at the Ithaca's how they screw together. There is a reason why they shoot so good!

[megasupermagnum]

Deja Vu. I feel like we just went through this a few months ago. Shimming or pinning at the receiver? Absolutely a good idea if that's what you want. Shimming at the mag tube? You are still the only person I've ever seen recommend this. It's going to be a pressure point regardless, so I just don't see it.

[tomme boy]

TarHunt thinks pinning is a good idea. If the owner of Dixie Slugs was still around he could tell you about shimming the mag tube. I heard of it before he was talking of it when he was still around testing his killer slugs in the beginning.

From what he was saying. Each of these guns the tubes are screwed in a little different. So the gap can be different on each gun. So when you tighten the barrel on each gun it can bend the barrel and effect the way it shoots. Then if you take the barrel off you are not going to get it the same the next time you put it back on with the gap there. If you make a shim to take up that space it will always be the same amount of torque being put on the lug and barrel.

I am not the only one that knows of this. The reason you have not heard of this is not that many people play with Mossbergs. More people play with Remingtons.

[longbow]

tomme boy:

Yes, I was thinking of the loose ring around the Remington mag tube (and my Browning) when you brought this up before. I was thinking that a shim would go into that gap so the end of the barrel wouldn't rattle.

The Mossberg is a different critter though since the barrel retainer screws into the mag tube.

Mine was reasonably stiff if I shook it or just gave the barrel a thump but if I grabbed it and levered a bit the whole works wobbled quite a bit! More like a lot!

The brass shim has eliminated any free wobble though I am sure under recoil the little bit of play left is still going to have some effect. Without pinning or epoxy that isn't going to go away totally. Now with open rifle sights on the smoothbore barrel I am not sure just how detrimental that is. With a saddle mount scope on a rifled gun and unshimmed/unpinned barrel is going to settle a little differently after each shot. Or for that matter a saddle mount scope on smoothbore gun would have the same issue though with somewhat less accuracy potential. That's why cantilever mounts are the ticket there but even then I think if the barrel has noticeable play it has to have some effect during recoil and slug barrel time.

In short, no manufacturer I know of makes rifles or handguns with loose barrels.

It is another hurdle shotgun slug shooters have with pump guns. Of course bolt guns and single shots don't have the issue.

I'll do a little checking on what may help and I just may try your washer idea. it is pretty simple to add a washer and I have a lathe so I can make what I want for diameter and thickness... unless it gets really thin but no reason for that I don't think. I doubt I'll go as far as pinning, though if removable socket head screws... maybe. Again, with smoothbore barrel I don't think there is near as much to be gained as with rifled barrel but I guess better accuracy is better accuracy even if not tack driving accuracy.

Its all good stuff!

Longbow

[tomme boy]

Mine was rifled. And when I shot full bore slugs through it the barrel was twisting in the receiver. I had to pin the barrel to the receiver to stop it. I did two pins. The aluminum Mossberg uses is really soft. So you have to make sure to use a pin that is going to be a really tight press fit. I also used some of the green locktight for sleeves to help hold it together.

I don't have the gun anymore. One of my best friends does. He kills a few deer every year with it. But he just buys some Hornady sabots and goes hunting. What fun is that?

[megasupermagnum]

It's a blessing, and a curse. For a dedicated slug gun, no doubt bolt it. For what you are going for, a quickly removable barrel with no tools is a huge asset. You never know when you will drop it nose first into the muck.

[longbow]

Yes, there is another point... barrel torque from rifled guns. If the barrel is a loose fit to receiver that is another source of inaccuracy. There I can see pinning being a good solution.

Makes the point that a dedicated rifled slug gun really should be all locked down like a rifle... and in fact a good single shot or bolt gun would be the obvious better choice. However, then there is that lack of versatility for buckshot or birdshot.

I do wish I could afford a Paradox gun! A well regulated side by with express sights and Paradox chokes. Even if my slow twist rifled choke tube works I wouldn't likely be able to apply it to a side by and then even if I could barrel regulation would be the stumbling block. Oh well.

Got to make up some more Brenneke'ized slugs and give them another go. I'll try some full bore slugs this time too.

For the Lee wad slugs I am thinking I should weaken the petals a bit. Most seemed to open up well but there were several that didn't. I have to think that if the wad is not opening and discarding quickly then it will be affecting groups. If these are just making it then even those that opened wide may be doing so inconsistently. Maybe a tighter fitting slug would do it?

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

After looking at my HD M500 I see what you are talking about. There is a .006-008 gap between the barrel Lug and the mag tube. I'll make a shim from brass shim sock to fit in there.

Lots going on with these slug launchers.

I found out about that TarHunt outfit the other day. Their $3500 Slug gun is supposed to be 1/2 MOA with Lightfield slugs or so this guy on youtube says his is. Hard for me to believe that, but I've been wrong before, and if I saw it I'd tell the world about it. Then people would think I was FOS too. May not be far off on that?

Just when you think you finally know everything, the World comes along as slaps you back down into the mud.

There goes all your attaboys and you get to start over..

Randy

[longbow]

I spend way too much time in the mud!

Really I do!