Modified Lee 7/8 oz. Slug Mould ~ Brenneke'ized!

[megasupermagnum]

Well I guess his barrel isn't threaded.

I don't think the twist rate is going to affect the slugs nearly as much as you think. Any spin is better than no spin and a 2" long section of Rifling at the end is not going to impart very much spin anyway. It will induce some, how much remains to be seen.

Here's a new Rifled Barrel on Ebay for $120US and it appears that they will ship to Canada.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mossberg-50...:rk:5:razz:f:0

There's a bunch of them on there. All the Smooth Bore Barrels have sights, and all the Rifled Barrels have a Cantelever Scope Mount. They range from $120 to $200 and most all of them are new.

Your gun is an 18" bbl with sights? I'd like that!

Randy

I don't think anyone here has enough experience to say that. If you look at muzzleloaders, nobody with a modern 1:28" twist gun is getting their best accuracy with a round ball or conical. Look at Taufledermaus on youtube, how many slugs has he tried now that are stable from a smooth bore, but practically tumble in a rifled gun? Two or three at least. Rifled choke tubes absolutely work, and I think Longbow is right on the money. Unfortunately in this modern day of $5 per shot sabot slugs nobody will care, but a slow twist rifled choke could be wonderful for rifled slugs, or other full bore slugs.

[longbow]

I'll argue the point in that Fosbery built the Paradox gun in 1885:

http://firearmshistory.blogspot.com/...radox-gun.html
https://www.classicshooting.com/blog...-a-paradox-gun

They worked quite well and were copied by others. From Modern Sporting Gunnery, 1906:

BALL- AND SHOT-GUNS AND THEIR DEVELOPMENT

SINCE about the year 1885 these weapons have been used
in various parts of the world. Early in this period the
principal systems were the Paradox, the Colindian, and
the Cosmos. Recently a new type has been introduced
by Westley Richards, which is deserving of special
mention, as it advances this useful weapon to a larger degree of
usefulness.

In the year named, Colonel Fosbery first advanced a system of
barrel-boring for the ordinary shot-gun termed " rifle-choke," by
means of which one and the same barrel could be made to throw
small shot with fair precision at 40 yards range, and also a single
projectile up to 80 or 100 yards. This dual purpose was effected
by boring the barrel smooth from the breech end to within a few
inches of the muzzle, at which point the bore was constricted, this
choked portion being rifled throughout.


What I have not found is Rifling twist rate. I contacted H&H London and while they were very helpful they did not have the twist rate. H&H is using the same tooling used for the original Paradox guns! They have not checked twist rate.

What I do know is that the old bore guns (or those I have found info on anyway) followed the same rules as rifled muzzleloaders for round ball twist so SLOW twist.

Note these twist rates for large bores:

http://www.octobercountry.com/pages/...ng-Rifles.html
http://pacificriflecompany.blogspot.com/


One caveat here is that with the relatively low velocities of shotguns, the twist rate may have to be faster than what a heavily loaded stout bore gun might have due to potentially higher velocity. However, since bore guns in 12 ga. ran twists like 1:120" I'd say 1:72" is fast. My .50 cal. Hawken has 1:66: twist.

Here is some interesting reading:

http://ezine.nitroexpress.info/Nicku.../Africa310.pdf

Note that this rifled choke system was also used for 20 ga. guns like Explora and Fauneta. These Paradox copies were made by Greener, Westley Richards, Jeffrey and others.

I am not trying to invent anything new with the rifled choke tube, more re-introduce what I think they were rather than the fast twists choke tubes produced today. I could be wrong on this and a rifled choke tube is not quite the same as a rifled choke so we'll see but I do intend to try.

Also, from James Gates on Shotgunworld in 2006:

Hello Jim.....There are many theories being tossed about concerning Paradox guns and fully rifled bareels in the various so-called shotgun bores.There has been many thay have researched the subject. There seems to be the Standard Paradox gun with the last few inches rifled, plus fully rifled barrels set up for either thin brass hulls (10%) or the thicker paper hulls (90%).....esch having slightly different bore dismeters. It does appear that the lands in the barrels were what we now consider standard (.729"/730") with the grooves running as high as .750" in the barrels designed for brass hulls.
On ther other hand the reverse is today's standard, with the grooves never bore size and the lands smaller (Hastings@ .717" land and .727" groove).
The original had a much slower twist, many as slow as 1 in 80".....because they where design as round ball guns ans conicals the were "squared" (length=diameter). Contrary to what many beleive today, all these guns were designed for hardened balls/bullets. This was done for two reasons.....first for penetration, but also to not alow stripping with the bullet at full velocity hit the rifled portion on the barrel in the Paradox. This problem arises today in the fast twist rifled choke tubes when the high velocity slug/bullst, being soft lead or plastice sabot, hit the fast twist.
Now to recoil! The original Parardox bullet was around 730" and weight at 730 grs.......velocity of the blackpowder load@1000'/" and the later Cordite load@1200'/". These weight/velocity loads could be controled rather well. Sad but true, Velocity is the key word today! Add velocity and recoil with the heavy type slug/bullets get rather brutal. Since recoil starts the milli-second that the bullet starts to move.....there is little proof that the recoil was less when the bullet hit the forward rifling. Various recoil reduction systems used excaping gas to function. There may have been some recoil reduction due to less friction in the smoothbore part of the barrel?
I am talking to a choke make about a select grop of choke tubes with a 1 in 80" twist. These would duplicte the internal ballistics of the Paradox guns.....but only with full size hard slug/bullets.
There is a gross misunderstnding today about full bore hard cast slug/bullets in rifled barrels. Our ongoing test have found them extremely accurate at very long range....albeit with a very high trajectory. This can be somewhat offset by sighting in at longer range where the slug/bullet was alowed to be 3"/4" bove the line of sight between the firearrm and where it wad zeroed in at.
I try to stay away from forums that are programed for lightweight bullets in sabots. Dixie Slugs concept is not new....we have re-introduced what worked very well for many years in Africa/India. Recent tests with the NEF Ultras have proved the point about accuracy with our loads.
It all boils down to what your hunting ranges are and the type of game! We sell little product in Shotgun-Only states, since the sabot rounds are on roll in those areas! I have tried to get people that believe in the sabot rounds to ship examples out to Cody for teat against Ole' Dixie's ammo.....none are forthcoming.
The Shotgun-Only states represent a very small portion of the total hunting market......and we ship a great deal of product in other areas. Regards, James

I don't think we should be trying for imparting some spin to the slug. We should be trying to impart the full rifling twist to the slug. Deep slow twist rifling is most likely to do that with full bore slugs. Sabot and wad slugs need to be keyed to the sabot/wad or squeezed very tightly to avoid skidding. Rifled choke tubes are likely the worst offenders here since the payload is screaming along at full velocity when it hits that 1:36" twist, which if as I think is faster than necessary for stabilization then it is a bad thing. A slower twist will be less likely to result in skidding or slippage. Maybe not an issue with full bore slugs or round balls but most likely is with wad/sabot slugs.

One man's opinion!

Longbow

[longbow]

Randy:

My Slugster has 18 1/2" barrel with rifle sights. A good combination for bear protection. Quick to acquire sight picture and simple.

I've painted the front sight white and plan to order a ghost ring rear sight. Williams makes a nice one. In the meantime I will try enlarging the slot in the rear leaf... or getting a leaf with larger slot. I am finding the sights difficult to see in anything but bright light.

Most of the Mossberg rifled barrels seem to be cantilever scope mount and 24" long. I don't want 24" especially if I have a scope. 22" is plenty and 20" even better in my opinion. If it is a "target" and "plinking" barrel the extra length is not a big deal but I'd still like shorter. A benefit of the cantilever barrels is that there is no front sight to move or remove if you shorten the barrel... just lop it off then re -crown. However, then a guy needs a scope or a red dot on the gun. I didn't want the extra expense, complication and "stuff" hanging of the gun but again, if it is a "target" and "plinking" gun that isn't so important and a scope is more precise than open sights (12 ga. varminter!?!)

Back on topic unlike my post above...

I plan to test out these Brenneke'ized Lee slugs in the cylinder bore smoothbore barrel. It would be interesting to see how they do in rifled barrel but I'd be surprised it they did as well as the Hammerheads. I suppose if they held 4" to 6" groups at 100 yards from rifled barrel I wouldn't be disappointed and if they'd do that from smoothbore I'd be dancing a jig! I don't expect I'll need new dancing shoes though!

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

Glad you brought up the Pacific Rifle Co (now gone but he made some nice looking guns.) You can still buy the basic Hopkins & Allen rifle kits.

He had a 12 and 20 ga rifle using Alexander Henry Rifling and as I recall it was 1:120 twist for the big round balls.

I almost have the A5 running so I will be shooting it hopefully next week. and I loaded a bunch of slugs and buckshot today to test. Lee and Lyman Slugs with roll crimps on trimmed AA hulls with blue wads .

We'll see what happens.

By the way that open sight on your Slugster is the ideal fast acquisition Rear Sight. After you establish your cheek weld in a repeatable fashion so that the Front Sight is aligned with the Rear Sight when you mount the gun,,, and held there by the cheek weld, then all you have to do is put that big white front sight on the target and let fly!

Focus on the Front Sight only and when it covers the target break the shot.

My Tac gun has a Green FO Front Sight and Open Rear (Williams) and I have 2 new Williams Front Sights for the A5 barrels which will be green as well. White works great too. The rear sights on the Browning barrels are a thin notch and they work good with the thin Factory blades,,, but need to be opened up for the FO front sights to work right. A few minutes with a round jewelers file will fix that.

Randy

[longbow]

So you are recommending against a ghost ring sight?

I generally like open sights but am finding that my aging eyes aren't as good as they used to be so I'm having a bit of trouble. I figured the more open ghost ring rear sight would allow more light and easier acquisition of the front sight against the target.

Certainly opening up the rear sight will help so I'll try that first. If it is good enough I'll stick with what I have.

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

LB In this case yes, I think the open sights are the best option.. I am 69, I wear Progressive glasses full time.

With open sights the sight alignment is held in place by your cheek weld. IE: Every time you mount the gun your sight alignment is there, because your cheek is going to the same place and thus your eye is too. Therefore sight alignment is fixed.

All you have to do is focus on the Front Sight and put it on the target. There doesn't need to be a bunch of refocusing back and forth between the FS the RS and the target to keep confirming sight alignment. It is fixed by your cheek weld.

After a while it becomes second nature, and all you look at is the Front Sight put the sight on the target and let fly..

On most of my open sight guns the Front Sight is either a Green FO or a White Line. (XS) which helps draw your attention to the FS.

Once you get this down you will start to notice a specific "Sight Picture" that yields a hit. This is why you don't have to focus on the target, just the Front Sight.

This is a situation where frequent or intensive practice needs to take place. One way is to use a BB gun or other type of gun where you can shoot the gun alot in a short period of time and there is little external influence on you. You can see the BB in flight. Once you shoot enough you will see that when you mount the gun the sights are aligned and you are anticipating where the shot will go based on previous experience.

A couple of years ago I shot a 31/40 in Rimfire Silhouette with an open sighted .22.Much to the amazement of all spectators, and those with scopes.

I talk alot about this on other forums as I get tired of hearing the "Old Eyes Excuse." All your eyes need to do is focus on a spot 2-3 feet in front of you, and if your glasses are decent you should be able to do that. Progressive Lenses not bifocals which will drive you nuts as you can't focus on anything, as they are an "either/or" focal length. With progressive lenses you simply move your head up or down to get to the sweet spot in the lenses that has your front sight in focus.

I assure you that everything I talked about above works.

Also you will notice that the vast majority of Dangerous Game Rifles have open sights. Pretty sure they figured this out along time ago.

I'd love to have that open sighted barrel for my HD gun!

Randy

[Ginsing]

Longbow:
If you have the extra cash I would highly recommend a ghost ring. I have shot with both ghost ring and express style sights wich is basically what Randy is explaining. Hands down ghost rings are faster and more precise.
Their is no need to focus at all on the rear sight, no need for developing muscle memory. Just look through the aperture and your eye will naturally center that front post.
It is ideal if it has a screw in aperature. Take the aperature out when out in the bush and precision isnt required.
I use a fairly narrow front post with some orange paint or nail Polish on it and can easily shoot both eyes open. If you put the screw in aperature back in you will have no problem out to 100 + yards. Try that with a big bead front sight and a big wide open rear sight and you will be struggling.

[longbow]

I have always liked "good" open sights. I like my Marlin 1894 open sights. I like my old Cooey model 60 .22 open sights and a few others. Generally I like a skinny blade with small bead and a reasonably large notch in the rear sight. My eye tends to put the bead at the center of the rear sight notch radius quite naturally as Randy says.

I'll open up the notch some and see if that does it. If so, I'll stick with simple. If not, I'll try a ghost ring rear sight. They aren't terribly expensive so no big loss if I don't like it.

When I work around to my "target" and "plinking" shotgun I may decide a scope is the way to go. Ellwood Epps has a Rossi rifled single shot 12 ga. (or had a couple of days ago). Not sure how they are for quality but I'd have to think similar to the H&R's which seemed to be pretty good with slugs. It'll be typical fast for 12 ga. twist though as everything else is.

Also going to pick up a Lee double cavity 0.600" RB so I can play with double ball loads and Tri-Ball loads. Good smoothbore fodder!

Longbow

[Hogtamer]

just a thought from an old bird/bowhunter...use the same sights you use on that longbow of yours! At short range on a probably moving bear ( the main reason for that shotgun combo you bought iirc ) the time you use trying to pick up sight picture probably reduces life expectancy an equivalent amount. Try it quickly from 15 _ 20 yds. On another topic if you buy a rifled barrel go with at least 20" or longer. That slow powder we use to move big slugs (especially Steel) likes room to burn or gives you muzzle blast that doesn't help anything, imo.

[pashiner]

I'll put in another vote for ghost ring/peep sights. Williams makes a nice one with the removable peep that leaves a ghost ring behind. I've got bad eyes too, and found that while scopes are nice to use, they have a tendency to destroy my glasses when mounted on a gun with real recoil. My varmint rifle now is the only scoped gun I own. Ghost rings or small aperture peeps for everything else. Clear focus on the same focal plane with or without glasses on, both eyes open shooting, and fast enough target acquisition that I can shoot clays with my 18" H.D. shotgun. What's not to like? Also when somebody borrows a gun from me, I no longer have to hear that dreaded phrase "hey I fixed your scope" when I get it back.

[longbow]

Hal:

Agreed! I doubt I'd be looking for a nice sight picture if a bear was charging... that is a point and shoot situation for sure. In that case having the rear leaf folded down would actually be beneficial I think... just the front blade with bead to catch the eye. The bead just over the receiver would be about right for that gun. The rear sight sits pretty low but was well set when I got the gun. My groups, while a bit large, were centered on the target at 50 yards so they are close anyway.

Once I get the rear sight opened up a bit and my M-CARBO spring set installed I'll try for groups again. There I want a good sight picture and have time to get one. I'll be taking the single shot along with the Slugster to compare groups since I know how the single shot shoots.

Also, contrary to my initial comments about the Slugster being pretty tight. There is some rattle there in the barrel to receiver fit. The way it goes together makes it a bit stiffer than my BPS or my son's 870 but when twisted/pushed fairly hard there is definitely slop between barrel and receiver. I'll try shimming that to tighten it up some. Not a big deal for smoothbore but every little bit helps.

Also, good point on barrel length Hal. If I go with a fully rifled barrel maybe the 24" is the best bet for my long range, sniper, varmint 12 ga. Mostly that is what is available for Mossbergs so far as I've found. I did find a shorter rifled barrel with rifle sights that IIRC was 20" but most are the 24" with cantilever scope mount.

Longbow

[tomme boy]

LB, shim the front barrel lug also. You do not want to put any bow in the barrel when you tighten the cap screw as the barrel seats in the receiver. Shim it between the barrel and the tube.

[megasupermagnum]

LB, shim the front barrel lug also. You do not want to put any bow in the barrel when you tighten the cap screw as the barrel seats in the receiver. Shim it between the barrel and the tube.

I have never heard of this before. I've shimmed between the barrel shank and receiver, but never at the magazine tube. The 500 would be the only shotgun this would work on.

[W.R.Buchanan]

The problem he's going to have with the Peep Sight is not the using of it, it will be the mounting of it.

If you have to drill and tap the receiver that is one problem. But getting the correct height to mate up with the Front Sight is the other bigger problem.

The Mossberg 590 A1 rear sight is most likely the one to use and we mounted one onto my Bro in laws M500 along with silver soldering the Mberg Front Sight onto the barrel. This gun only had a bead front sight to start with, so he had to do something

As far as the muscle memory part,,, there isn't any. The cheek weld is a product of correctly mounting the gun. If you do that right your eye will probably be lined up with the sights, and the sights will be aligned as well. Gun fit also comes up, and if these guns don't fit you right they will beat the snot out of you!!!.

I shoot aperture and open sights almost exclusively. For accuracy the Aperture Sights are easier to get to perform. People tend to study the sights trying to get the front to be in the center of the rear which defeats the purpose entirely. It automatically is centered by your eye. Open sights take a little more work, but if you mount the gun right, and the gun fits you right, the sights will be there when you look.

When you start talking accuracy there is some other factors that affect groups more than the type of sight. The type of target and where you hold on that target is one of the biggest contributors to good groups. This is true with open or aperture sights and also with Red Dots. and your POA is critical. See pic below. 5 shot group under 1" from a Mini 14 with a red dot sight!

with a post type front sight the correct target is a diamond and the point of aim should be to set the point of the diamond onto the front sight and center it, which takes care of windage, then obviously setting the diamond point on the front sight will take care of elevation for the purpose of shooting a group.

In the pic below I was holding the right edge of the Red Dot on the left corner of the diamond. The Dot was 3 MOA so the group printed 1.5" to the left of the point. The group is 1" high because the gun is zeroed at 200 yards.

Randy

[tomme boy]

I have never heard of this before. I've shimmed between the barrel shank and receiver, but never at the magazine tube. The 500 would be the only shotgun this would work on.

Pretty sure that is the gun he has. And yes that is the gun it works on. It is a little trick that is not known about. You are trying to get the barrel locked up as tight as possible.

If you look at just about every M500 gun out there there is going to be a little gap at that joint. You want to shim that joint to make it a solid locked joint. Don't be surprised if your gun does not shoot the same anymore after doing this. It may be better or worse.

[victorfox]

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year for all!

Longbow, it's good to see your work!

Well, I don't know if it's feasible for your, but since it will probably take some of your time... Have you thought about using recycled HDPE for the wads? One could "melt and press" some into rods or round bars, using, say a 3/4" steel pipe, then turn the bar to diameter (.730 or thereabouts), then drill and cut at desired length. It's free material (milkjugs etc), and very workable. Taofledermaus even shot some pellet style slugs made from the material.

If this sounds undoable or plain stupid, please disregard it.

Success!

[victorfox]

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year for all!

Longbow, it's good to see your work!

Well, I don't know if it's feasible for your, but since it will probably take some of your time... Have you thought about using recycled HDPE for the wads? One could "melt and press" some into rods or round bars, using, say a 3/4" steel pipe, then turn the bar to diameter (.730 or thereabouts), then drill and cut at desired length. It's free material (milkjugs etc), and very workable. Taofledermaus even shot some pellet style slugs made from the material.

If this sounds undoable or plain stupid, please disregard it.

Success!

[longbow]

I finally got some Brenneke'ized slugs put together!

I found some fairly dense felt used for under furniture legs so figured I'd try it.

I made a punch to produce 16 ga. wads (0.672" wads diameter) then punched out some felt and polyethylene disks.

I made a jig to punch centered holes for screw then assembled the slugs in a jig.

They turned out pretty well but if course shooting will tell the tail!

These are pretty easy to make so if they work well will get some more attention.

As always, I think consistency in the wads and attachment will be determining factors in success or failure.

Pic attached.



Longbow

[Markopolo]

Longbow, you gunna still put those into a cup of some sort? Might I suggest a touch of moose snot or something like it on those felt wads. Kinda like the lubed/wax wads that alcan used to run.. might help things out the barrel.

Marko

[longbow]

Yes, these are wad slugs so into a shotcup they go. If I put anything on them I will likely tumble them in talcum powder or powdered graphite.

If they were full bore slugs I would use a lube of some sort melted into the felt for sure.

On that note, I always liked the original"Classic" Brenneke slug and would like a full bore attached wad slug so if these show promise I'll modify my full bore TC slug mould and try it too... and with lubed felt wads.

A nice thing about felt is that is compresses mostly linear rather than squishing out in every direction where the hot melt glue simply expands under pressure so does increase sidewall pressure. How much? Actually I have no idea but recovered wads indicate that it is substantial. Does it increase pressure? I have to think yes but so far I have not seen any sort of pressure signs or noticed more recoil, sticky extraction, etc. Possibly the expansion occurs at peak pressure as the slug is entering the bore and first short distance down the barrel then tapers off. I really don't know but I am also not pushing the pressure limits and have not seen anything to worry about.

These slugs will be loaded over a moderate charge of Blue Dot. I have to weight the completed slugs but I suspect they will be about an ounce to maybe 1 1/8 oz. total. I'll use a load recipe for a same wight slug or heavier.

Longbow