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Thread: Slug loads with no wad, card, etc

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy
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    Slug loads with no wad, card, etc

    Anyone try using a plastic hull and a full bore slug with nothing but powder between the slug and the primer flash hole?

    I'm wanting nothing but slug and gas to exit the barrel.

    Imagine a big muzzle brake mounted suppressor that could retain a sabot, card, or gas seal and have a catastrophic outcome.

    I’ll be swaging my own jacketed slug. 0.729” size. PAC-nor rifled barrel. I still have to design the chamber reamer.
    Last edited by ohnomrbillk; 12-14-2018 at 09:07 AM.

  2. #2
    Boolit Grand Master

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    No here... so no personal experience.

    I think you would get a lot of blow by in the hull and through the forcing cone. In fact possibly so much you would lose pressure and not get decent powder burn.

    What I have tried is to use nitro card wads under a slug in a shotcup with cushion leg and gas seal cut off. I had lots of shotcups left over after cutting gas seals off for use under full bore slugs ~ since it is hard to get stuff here I use what I have.

    I was surprised at how much blow by I got using two 1/8" nitro card wads then a hard card wad under the shotcup with slug in it. Recovered shotcups were shredded by hot gas, black, burned, unbelievable!

    I would not have thought there would be that much leakage but so there was. That plastic gas seal makes a huge difference.

    Now for full bore slug the only thing that will get burned is the hull and you may get gas cutting of the slug but I'd be more concerned about bloopers due to low pressure. Fast powder might be better that way and BP or a sub might work reasonably well as they are not so pressure dependent. But of course this is just speculation on my part.

    It won't hurt to try. At worst you'll burn up a hull and maybe get some leading. I am assuming use of standard load data for a solid slug. I am pretty sure the old card wad column loads used more powder to make up for leakage but not something I'd care to guess at.

    Now. there have been a few people make up .73 cal. brass cartridges with full bore slugs but I don't know about chambers and loads. If chambered like a rifle there should be no issue but typical shogun chamber I am sure will result in lots of blow by at first. I know a couple of these ideas were tried and there are posts here so maybe try a search. I'd guess there could be info on nitroexpress.com too so you might try a search there. I'm sure it is not a new topic.

    Keep us posted. Sounds interesting.

    Longbow

  3. #3
    Boolit Grand Master


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    I've got some loaded up with nothing but a gas seal under the slug. They have 100 grains of Reloader 17 under them, and I haven't built up the courage to light them off yet. Card wads come apart, they might cause problems with a muzzle brake. A gas seal or three won't hurt, and the X12X stacks well.

  4. #4
    Boolit Man
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    The only such slug I know is the Sauvestre but it uses an undersized slug and a sabot that also works as a gas seal.
    http://www.sauvestre.com/12-70,301?lang=fr

  5. #5
    Boolit Buddy
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    I edited my first post to clarify objectives.

  6. #6
    In Remembrance bikerbeans's Avatar
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    I have tried this and as LB suggested there was a lot of blow by and loss of velocity. I think the problem is the loaded round wasn't tight in the chamber. If your OD was large enough for the round to fit very snug in the chamber you could reduce the blowby. If you are having a chamber reamer cut then a short rifle style throat would help a lot.

    FWIW, i built a fully rifled 410 and all i load is a slug and a compressed load of powder. This 410 will shoot 1.5" groups at 100 yards. To me this proves the concept of loading a slug without wads, cards, gas seals, etc.

    BTW, I hope your 12ga is very heavy as recoil is crazy in a 10 pound SG with a full case of SR 4759.

    BB

  7. #7
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    At least a gas seal. With plasitc hulls I see no other way. A gas seal and a good nitro card at minimum.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master Blood Trail's Avatar
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    I run all types of shotshells through a suppressor with zero issues in 2 years. everything except sabots due to no threads on my rifled barrels.

  9. #9
    Boolit Grand Master

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    If you are getting a custom chamber reamer made you may have a good chance of this working. Not sure of the tolerances on plastic hulls but if the hull is a close fit to chamber and you don't have a forcing cone the slug may enter and seal the bore without a lot of blow by.

    Greg Sappington (aka 12bore) had a custom chamber reamer made to produce a rifle like chamber for a custom barrel he had made a few years ago. His reasoning was that by eliminating the forcing cone accuracy should be improved ~ no wiggle room for the slug.

    In your case that and almost immediate sealing of the bore would be the goals.

    If you haven't yet, I'd suggest a search for posts here on Cast Boolits, shotgunworld.com, nitroexpress.com and doublegunshop.com you may find that someone has tried this and has a reamer though I suspect most people doing this would be thinking brass cartridge. It's worth a try.

    Greg might be willing to rent or loan the reamer as well if it is suitable for your use. You can PM him from this site. He is still around though he doesn't post anymore... or very infrequently anyway.

    Longbow

  10. #10
    Boolit Buddy
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    If the goal is to keep junk out of your suppressor, and avoid hitting it with wad material at 900 mph, have you considered a. Attached-wad slug like a brenneke, ot one of those Russian types? Or even just a plastic gas seal screwed to the base of your jacketed slug might help it past the forcing cone without a stupid amount of blow-by.

  11. #11
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blood Trail View Post
    I run all types of shotshells through a suppressor with zero issues in 2 years. everything except sabots due to no threads on my rifled barrels.
    Salvo 12 suppressor?

  12. #12
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikerbeans View Post
    I have tried this and as LB suggested there was a lot of blow by and loss of velocity. I think the problem is the loaded round wasn't tight in the chamber. If your OD was large enough for the round to fit very snug in the chamber you could reduce the blowby. If you are having a chamber reamer cut then a short rifle style throat would help a lot.

    FWIW, i built a fully rifled 410 and all i load is a slug and a compressed load of powder. This 410 will shoot 1.5" groups at 100 yards. To me this proves the concept of loading a slug without wads, cards, gas seals, etc.

    BTW, I hope your 12ga is very heavy as recoil is crazy in a 10 pound SG with a full case of SR 4759.

    BB
    What kind of crimp are you using and what tool are you crimping with?

  13. #13
    In Remembrance bikerbeans's Avatar
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    I use BPI roll crimpers and a drill press for 10ga, 12ga, 20ga, 24ga and 410 bore slugs, shot and buckshot. The crimps aren't perfect, like factory roll crimps, but as a wise man from Georgia once said "don't let perfect get in the way of good enough".

    BB

  14. #14

  15. #15
    Boolit Grand Master

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    I think I will take a close look through the BPI website and see how many of these different slugs I can buy and try. Moulds are available for many now but easier to buy a few Gualandis, Thug Slugs, AQ'a and others to give them a try. Then decide on moulds or slug styles to pursue.

    I'd agree that a plastic gas seal under a solid slug should pose no problems but until its tried...?

    Eliminating the wad column has to be a good thing if you can do it. Even the Gualandi style slugs have a long attached wad that can distort and any sort of distortion has to affect accuracy in a bad way.

    It'll be interesting to see how this all turns out.

    Longbow

  16. #16
    Boolit Master Blood Trail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by longbow View Post
    I think I will take a close look through the BPI website and see how many of these different slugs I can buy and try. Moulds are available for many now but easier to buy a few Gualandis, Thug Slugs, AQ'a and others to give them a try. Then decide on moulds or slug styles to pursue.

    I'd agree that a plastic gas seal under a solid slug should pose no problems but until its tried...?

    Eliminating the wad column has to be a good thing if you can do it. Even the Gualandi style slugs have a long attached wad that can distort and any sort of distortion has to affect accuracy in a bad way.

    It'll be interesting to see how this all turns out.

    Longbow
    LB,

    I’ve shot a few slugs with the hard plastic donut gas seal under the slug. Nothing terrible happened.




    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  17. #17
    Boolit Buddy Charlie U.'s Avatar
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    Have you considered using a patched full bore roundball as your slug? The patch would give you the gas seal you need and help engage the rifling which is good since you're talking about using a rifled barrel. Essentially performing like a muzzle loader round ball. The patch may or may not carry on through a suppressor can, but it might be worth a try.

    No wad column under the thing might require some kind of filler on top to fill out the shell and allow good crimping.....or not. If it works it would be about the simplest and most cost effective shotgun slug load.
    Last edited by Charlie U.; 01-01-2019 at 08:31 PM. Reason: can't spell
    ~Charlie U.

  18. #18
    In Remembrance bikerbeans's Avatar
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    I've thought about a PRB slug but haven't tried it. I am not sure what will happen to the patch when it enters the forcing cone and rifling.

    BB

  19. #19
    Boolit Grand Master

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    If you'd have asked me e few years ago I'd have said the patch would be shed opening the crimp. However, some here have said they have used patched round ball pushed into hulls successfully... in rifled guns.

    Not quite sure why the patch stays on but so they say it does. Now that's with gas seal and wad column under the ball so shouldn't be much gas leakage but maybe there is enough that the patch stays on the ball then seals the bore?

    in the OP's case with no wad column it is a different situation. Not quite like a muzzleloader in that there is a hull to open and a jump to then through the forcing cone but with gas pressure behind the patched ball, and nothing between, that patch may be well held in place. I'm not sure there would be any benefit to patched ball over full bore ball or slug though. Once a full bore (groove diameter) ball or slug is in the bore it will be sealed anyway.

    Certainly no harm in trying and patching should eliminate any leading or need for lube.

    Longbow

  20. #20
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    youll need brass shells

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check