.38 Special Super Police C.O.L.

[CeeHoo]

Would someone have factory-made .38 Special Super Police cartridges at hand? Any chance to check their overall length? I'd be interested in replicating this load but when seating Lyman #358430 boolits in such a manner the front driving band is sticking out of the case mouth a bit - something like what the original looks like - the cartridge is possibly becoming a bit shorter than the original. It seems to me that Lyman makes the subcaliber ogive a bit shorter than the original is. This is all based on eyeballing though, I don't have a vintage one to measure. I suppose those were soft lead swaged boolits? Is there any picture of their structure out there?

Here's my Lyman compared to original Super Police cartridge made by Western.

[Outpost75]

My 1930s originals are 1.545" and very accurate in iron sighted rook rifle at 50 yards.

Attachment 231987Attachment 231988Attachment 231989Attachment 231990

[Jniedbalski]

What are the weights of the bullets 200gr?

[Jniedbalski]

Also nice rifle

[Outpost75]

What are the weights of the bullets 200gr?

That's what it says on the box of the Super Police.

Lyman-Ideal #358430 is about 195 grains in No.2 alloy and to 200 grains in 1:40 tin-lead, which is closer in hardness to the factory bullet alloy.

According to Hatcher's Textbook of Pistols and Revolvers (1935) the Super Police bullet was hollow-based, 0.81" long and propelled by 4 grains of Hercules Infallible powder (similar to modern Herco) for a velocity of 725 fps from a 6-inch solid test barrel. The vintage Super Police loads pictured in the above post gave 696 fps from my circa 1941 S&W .38 Special Hand Ejector with 6" barrel, whereas the 158-grain loads pictured with the revolver gave 812 fps. Barrel-cylinder gap of my revolver is 0.006" pass / 0.007" hold.

Attachment 231995

[gwpercle]

Crimp the cast boolit in the top crimp groove , the factory boolit is different...see the cannelure about in the middle of the case ...that helps keep the factory boolit from moving back.
Your cast boolits appear to be seated a bit deeper than the factory and I agree with you the factory are probably swaged lead and hollow based also . Seating yours to the crimping groove should make them of the correct length.
Gary

[CeeHoo]

Thanks for all the pictures and information. You are very correct, my test round only measures 1.494". Seating a bit higher obviously solves the length "issue". I just don't like the looks of the front driving band becoming more out of the case but that's just me.

I can see that N.O.E. makes the "nose" much longer than Lyman but would these be more correct for the .38 S&W Super Police rather than the Special version? To me the S&W nose looks even longer the Special nose. Old West Bullet Moulds has a 200 grain round nose mold too.






Also found this article about the 200 grain loads and the author was using boolits made by Magnus Bullet Company. Tried to enter their website but they blocked me out due to my location (a terrorist country obviously). However, I found a few pictures of these boolits and to me their nose appears to be pretty darn close to what Outpost75 just posted. Any information from which mold these could be?

https://loaddata.com/articles/PDF/LD-41%20Campbell.pdf

[2shot]

[/QUOTE]

I have used the Magnus 507's before and much prefer my own 358430 cast out of range scrap or 40-1 lead. The Magnus are good but very hard compared to range scrap or 40-1. I have shot the 358430 with 40-1 and they will rivet and expand to some extent on deer when the hit bone. They will also penetrate very well. Deer shot at aprox 6 feet straight down from tree stand w/ S&W M-60, broke back, split shoulder blade in two and continued down front leg bone cracking it open like crab leg and on into the dirt below. Velocity was aprox 625fps

[Outpost75]

Accurate has several heavy bullets for .38 Special and .38 S&W. I use the 36-190T which is a flat nose with large meplat which weighs 190 grains in wheelweights and about 195 in 1:40.

Attachment 232026 Attachment 232025Attachment 232027

.38 S&W (NOT SPECIAL!) Hand Loads Fired in Revolver And Rook Rifle

Firearm__________S&W 32-1___ S&W Reg.Pol.___S&W Victory___Rook Rifle
Barrel length________2”_________4”____________5”_________ __20”
Cyl. Gap__________0.005______.005__________.009________ _Solid bbl.

Accurate 36-190T

1.7 Bullseye________485, 9_____545, 15_______496, 18______560, 23 Min. to Exit Barrel
2.1 Bullseye________547, 15____630, 16_______572, 15______681, 10 Super Police Factory Dup. Load
3.0 AutoComp______668, 4_____732, 15_______674, 20______825, 16 Do Not Exceed
2.5 Bullseye________645, 10____686, 5________704, 8_______800, 11 Do Not Exceed 

[crankycalico]

how does firing in a .357 magnum with a 6" barrel going to impede bullet leaving the barrel?

[Outpost75]

how does firing in a .357 magnum with a 6" barrel going to impede bullet leaving the barrel?

At revolver velocities below about 500 fps if the revolver has a large cylinder gap over 0.008" a bullet might fail to exit the bore. The situation is exaserbated in a .357 chamber because there is gas leakage around the bullet when it transitions from the shorter .38 Special cartridge case past the end of the longer .357 chamber, where the bullet is unsupported for a time.

Try it some time and take your dead blow hammer and knockout rod to the range with you.

[Groo]

Groo here
Remember the 38spec and the 357mag are almost the same length due to being used in the same length cylinders.
Modern Jhps or fp bullets are made to be used in both length cases bur the old original were different.
An example would be a M-15 S&W and a M-28 357 mag.
Both cylinders are same length but a [real] Keith bullet will only chamber when loaded in a 38 case.
357 cases require the bullet to be seated and crimped over the front driving band.
The 200 gr bullets were quite long, the hollow base helping to seal the base at the lower pressures.
Also they were to yaw when going through the target , so low speeds were required.