Lets discuss the topic of Roll Crimping lots to here need to get it all in one place.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I have progressed a long way since the last post on this thread 6 months ago.

I have gotten the BPI Roll Crimp Tool to work very well now and it produces very nice consistent crimps with a nice taper on the front of the shell to aid in feeding.

I have settled on 200 RPM's as the best operating speed but it is not super critical. It seems to be a balance between rotational speed and feed speed.

I have also made a new shell vise/clamp and I have to confess that I stole the idea from a guy on Youtube, we all watched his video a few months ago and he had several good ideas. It was simple to make and works really well, and costs almost nothing.

I am using my Milling Machine Spindle to crimp simply because it is there and easy to setup for crimping. It also lets me control the speed and depth of the spindle easily so I can try different speeds which is what I did until I settled on 200 RPM's as the sweet spot.

A few observations:

1. Previously Fold Crimped Hulls don't crimp as nice as Previously Roll Crimped Hulls.

2. Strait Wall Hulls roll crimp better than tapered hulls. IE: Cheaper hulls like Rio Cheddite, Fiocchi, crimp better than Winchester AA or Remington STS Hulls. New strait walled hulls crimp the best of all,,, and if you notice pretty much all Factory Loaded Slugs are loaded in strait walled hulls. Save your AA's ad STS hulls for Your Trap Loads.

3.Having a flat place for the crimp to seat on makes for better finished shells. Slugs with Flat Noses or Steps allow for more consistent Crimps. See Brenneke Slugs and Gualandi Thug Slugs as good examples. This design gives the Roll Crimp a good place to seat and produces more consistent ammunition. Note in the pics below that all of those slugs have flat faces for the crimp to seat on. Also note that the Factory Brenneke and Lightfield Slugs were loaded into normal Rio hulls. Nothing special and yet they are considered to be the best shotgun slugs available.

Believe me "anyone" can load ammo this good!

4. Overall lengths of the completed shells needs to be consistent for best accuracy. Wad pressure seems to be the primary variable here. If all your components are the same then all your loaded rounds should end up the same length as long as when you seat the wad it gets the same amount of compression from round to round.

Obviously the best way to do this is on a loading machine, however you can do it by hand by using a bathroom scale to push down on. You insert your Rammer (piece of 5/8" dowel) and push down on the wad to the same amount of weight each time. (This idea came from the Lee Classic Shotshell Loader instructions and it works just fine.) This will insure that the base of the shot cup in the wad is at the same elevation with relation to the base of the hull, and after the slug is introduced and the crimp closed the result should be rounds that are very close to the same length.

We take it for granted that our loaded brass cartridges all look the same. We know there are fine points that must be considered and many of us go out of our way to make sure that all our loaded rounds are as close to identical as possible.

Got news for ya,,, The same holds true for shotgun ammunition, only the fine points are a little different. Just stuffing a spent hull full of powder and shot will certainly shoot, but if you want rifle like accuracy out of your slug gun you are going to have to pay attention to some details.

Bottom line is whomever makes the best ammo, will probably shoot the best.

Randy

[Petander]

Consistent results made me go italian. I have a couple of friends who can use this as well.



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I find myself converting factory trap ammo to "Economy Slugs" in quite large batches now. RB in 20, Lyman in 12.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Petander: That Italian machine makes nice crimps and the machine itself is pretty nicely made. They take shotgunning alot more seriously over there than we do. A quick look at the guns they make pretty much tells the story. They've just been at it longer than we have, and they definitely have a more refined eye for aesthetics than we ever will. Perrazzi, Ferrari, Sophia! Just to name a few.

It will do all Gauges with just a change in the spool, right.

Since you now have one, it would be cool if you could do a total Expose' and show us all the details on the machine here on this thread.

This is one method of Roll Crimping that we in the US seldom see and thus are not generally aware of.

Your converted Trap Ammo looks perfect !

The whole reason for this thread is to make people understand that mastering Roll Crimping is the key to making quality Shotgun Slug and Buck ammo.

When your ammo is right you will shoot better, and it doesn't matter what you are shooting at.

Randy

[W.R.Buchanan]

Now: I have a question that I have been pondering for a while, and have not been able come up with a logical answer for.

What is the purpose of the bumps in the Roll Crimping Tools? Most all of them seem to have them. Some have 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 or 6 bumps or some even have "Ramps" instead of bumps.(the Russian hand crank tool) I have also seen tools that had no bumps at all.

So what's the deal?

Randy

[Petander]

The Italian thing has three "waves" and on top of each "wave" is a "pin'.

Got no better words. But someone has obviously designed these right. One gets more pressure and heat at the roll point this way,I'm only guessing here? It would take more force to roll everywhere at once,thus making it easier to crush the hull...?

I haven't crushed hulls with this thing.

[gpidaho]

Petander: I just finished watching a few videos on You tube . OMV makes some really NICE loading equipment. I wonder if they sell their products in the U.S. The crimping tool that mounts on a table top drill press is of special interest to me. I'm afraid their fancy loading press with the vibrating powder drop station might be out of my price range. Thanks for posting pictures of your new smart machine. I'm impressed. Gp

[W.R.Buchanan]

OK that's good. Fortunecookie45LC on Youtube and the Reloaders Network just did a video on a tool being made here in the US that makes pretty nice crimps and the hulls are pretty reusable after firing. It has 4 bumps.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoEWvwSeeyc

Check this out.

I have to tell you guys what I am looking for is Smooth Radiused Roll Crimp with a nice Taper on the front of the hull like the BPI tool does.

Seems like you get one or the other and nobody makes one that does both functions.

The only problem I see with the BPI tool is that it creases the mouth of the hull which distorts it permanently. If they would make the pins with a radius in them they wouldn't crease the hull. Seems like?

Thoughts?

Randy

[gpidaho]

I don't know how many of you own or have used the Russian hand roll crimping tool that looks like the old fashion ideal tools, clamps to the bench and crank it like an old pencil sharpener. Well, these tools come with an extra crimp head you can attach to a threaded shaft and use in your drill press. What's different about these is that they don't have the roll pins but are somewhat roughly cast with three step waves. and surprisingly, make a very nice roll crimp. Gp

[W.R.Buchanan]

I got one but mine didn't come with the extra shaft. I can make one pretty easy out of a 6MM bolt and nut.

Mine was very rough and I took it apart and deburred all the parts including the inside where the Ramps are. It works OK but not as good as the BPI tool. But if I could spin it faster I think it would "run in" faster and probably make really good crimps. I'll get a bolt and try it tomorrow.

Considering using some valve lapping compound on a wasted hull, on my BPI crimp tool to see if I can radius the pin a little to produce a more curved top to it's crimps.

Randy

[gpidaho]

You're right Randy. Mine came with an extra crimping head and I added the shaft, a bolt from the local hardware store. I have BPI 1 and 2 pin models and the Lyman -with the 6 rollers we got from Scott. This crudely cast Russian head makes as good if not better crimp. Having to have/try one of everything LOL I also bit on the crimp tool that screws down like a clamp and I'm still not sure how that one is supposed to work. Haven't spent much time trying to figure it out but so far it just crushes hulls better than anything else. Gp

[Cap'n Morgan]

I 3-D mill my own crimp-heads from brass with three "knuckles", which I believe gives a more balanced crimp. I make them with a tight outer diameter to prevent any flare on the loaded shell. The ideal width of the circular slot seems to be about 2mm ( 0.08") I tried for a smaller width (2 x shell thickness + a little bit) but it didn't work as planned.

[TonyfromItaly]

Hello, OMV ships their products all over the world. You can call then, Stefano or his son speak english.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Capt: on your tool do you get a taper on the front of the hull like the BPI Tool leaves? It seems like a ball nosed cutter with some taper on the sides would do it. Like a 3MM /1/8" cutter with a 2MM nose on it and a taper from 3 to 2, but then you'd get the taper on the inside as well.

I have thought that these tools with the bumps like the Lyman were made on a mill, But all of these tools either leave either a Radiused top on the crimp and no taper on the sides or a square topped crimp with the taper. None do both.

Something to cogitate on.

Randy

[Cap'n Morgan]

Randy, I have straight sides on the outside of the crimp profile but the diameter is slightly smaller than the shell diameter, leaving no room for the crimp to expand outwards. The crimp tool could be made with a tapered transition into the roll radius, but I have never had any problems with my crimps expanding or the shells binding when cambering.

[W.R.Buchanan]

The last stage on My DL366 loader has a cone shaped device which tapers the front of the loaded round. The BPI tool does this and I have used the BPI tool (both turning and not turning)to impart some taper to Winchester Factory Universals that normally have a bulged crimp.

I have more malfunctions with that brand of ammo than I do with the Federals,,, So now I only buy the Federals from Walmart, $21.74 US is too cheap to even consider loading. Winchesters are the same price but not worth it.

AS far as the tapered front on the hulls the place where these really benefit you is in the loading of the rounds into the mag tube. Typically pretty much all Mag fed shotguns have a flat surface at the front of the loading port with the mag tube threaded in. Rounds tend to hang up there and anything you can do to the round to make it go in the hole easier is beneficial. On the Benelli's they cut the sides of the loading port down so you get a straighter shot at the mag tube, which allows Loading 2 shells in one push. When they grab them off their holders they grab 4 shells and load them in two pushes. The good guys can do this in about 2 seconds!

The A5 requires a steeper angle to get in the mag tube because the Lifter is much shorter and thus a nice radius on the front if the shells is a good thing. Some taper on the outside would be even better.

Watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USdFTFG0iCI

Randy

[Walks]

I have a set of EARLY 20th Century tools handed down 4 generations. Wish I knew were I stashed them. They have a thumb screw operated roll crimper that will go down far enough to crimp a 2" shell, works on paper or plastic. Came with a priming tool, but no decappers.
GUESS your just supposed to punch it out with a nail. Had an OLD one piece slug mold, but that disappeared 50yrs ago. Now a Lyman Foster slug mold works for it.

Sure was fun when I was a kid in Jr. High, swiped from my Dad stash. He never asked for it back. My Little Brother and I "swiped" a little melting pot and OLD ladle from the Old Man's stash too. Would open the crimps on TRAP loads for the shot, trim the case a bit with a pocket knife and stick the slug on top of wads cut from tablet backing. Saved the WWAA12 wads to sneak into the loading process at Dad's house for later.

Packed our shotguns in their breakdown cases and rode our bike's up into the Angeles National Forest.

GEEZ!, we were dumb. Still we never blew ourselves up.
Guess we were betraying the trust our Dad had in us by letting us keep our shotguns & .22's & ammo at our Mom's house.

Of course He knew we went up to the forest to shoot. But not about the making slugs part.

These days if a LAPD Cop saw a couple of boys riding their bikes up Van Nuys Blvd, with rifles slung on their backs. It would be a National News Story. My DAD would end up in Jail and my Brother and I would go into Foster care.

Times have changed.

[glockky]

Well I read through this whole thread trying to figure out which roll crimping tool to buy. I’ll be honest there’s lots of good info here but I still can’t make up my mind lol.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Just get a BPI tool. It is simple and they work. Don't overthink this.

Randy

[gpidaho]

glockky: Bpi makes two different 12ga. roll crimping tools, one with one roll pin and one with two. I own both. I believe the two pin roller does a marginally better job. Gp

[toallmy]

still watching this thread .