Lets discuss the topic of Roll Crimping lots to here need to get it all in one place.

[W.R.Buchanan]

LB: your comment about killing power being a function of large meplat is exactly what slugs are all about.

Taylor Knock Out tends to favor larger calibers simply because the frontal area of the projectile dumps it's energy faster that smaller faster boolits. Bus vs Porsche.

A 12 ga 1 oz Slug 440 gr at 1300 fps has a TKO of 60 and a muzzle energy of @1600 ftlbs.

A 12 ga 1 1/8 oz slug (490 gr) at 1600 fps has a TKO of 84 and a muzzle energy of @2850 ftlbs.

A.458 Win Mag 500 gr at 2150 fps has a TKO of 70 but muzzle energy of @5150 ftlbs.

The frontal area delivers the TKO or Knock Down Power, but the velocity and smaller dia delivers the penetration.

The Brenneke Slugs will.............................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .....l;;l; take down any Bear (Cat typing!)

But I think so will any of our attempts at reinventing the wheel.

We have the power and these threads are helping us understand that power!

New Idea! how about one of your Lee Slugs with the Felt wad attached shoved down into a cut down hull and roll crimped?

Short Brenneke?

My mind drifts along.

Randy

[longbow]

Randy:

My comment was more about different slug design than diameter. Same diameter but the Lee slug is round nose and the Lyman 525 gr. is wadcutter flat nose. I am sure that flat nose does more damage but ultimately does it matter when a 3/4" diameter (more or less) object is poking a hole in living tissue?

I've read comments that the round nose "pushes" tissue out of the way while the flat nose tears it. Not disputing that but a .50 cal. round ball from a front stuffer is quite deadly so a 12 ga. ball must be as deadly or more so.

Anyway, not an issue for current Brenneke'izing.

Once of the reasons I don't like HB slugs is that many years ago I had a reloading "mishap" with Lyman Foster slugs. I've posted this before but... I was having trouble with the Lyman recipes not performing very well at all with things like wads stuck in cavities, wads going right through slugs leaving a tube, collapsed skirts, uneven obturation, and the list goes on. One of my "solutions" was to fill the cavity with cornmeal before loading. That seemed to help, I am assuming, by taking some of the compression load and supporting the skirt. Otherwise this was a book loading.

I found that some of the loads kicked more than others and I got sticky extraction. I should at that point have realized that something was not right but the slugs seemed to be working reasonably well... finally!

I took some out with my single shot (I had been using the Browning BPS). I loaded one up out in the bush, took aim, pulled the trigger and chaos ensued! The gun felt like rubber and I felt a spray in my face. Once the event was over I found myself holding a forearm and buttstock with action... no barrel (hence the rubbery feel). I had a bit of blood trickling down my face but otherwise unhurt except it turns out some hearing loss.

The barrel was about 10' in front of me missing the entire top of the chamber. Later examination showed lead from the case mouth into the forcing cone ~ 2 3/4" hull in 3" chamber. My assumption as to what happened is that the slug got whacked in the butt and expanded to fill the chamber and the cornmeal compressed to near solid so when this all hit the forcing cone it cause a pressure spike while trying to squeeze down. Pure speculation on my part but what I know is that the load was a book load and I only had one powder on hand and if I double charged I wouldn't have fit everything into the hull.

I also know that the undersize Lyman Foster obturates to fill the bore swelling from 0.705" to bore diameter because I've recovered enough of them from deep snow to measure and confirm.

Regardless, I decided at that point that Brenneke like slugs or round balls are much safer in that regard as they do not obturate.

So, on to shorty slug loads. Yup! I like the idea but would not recommend it using typical HB Foster style slugs. I won't do it anyway. A short load with HB slug that obturates and fills the chamber has to squeeze back down at the forcing cone at about peak pressure.

A short Brenneke round... absolutely! These modified Lee slugs cast from ACWW should not obturate at all and with attached wad should improve performance/accuracy if the wads are all consistent and it should all fit into a standard shotcup without trimming if the attached wad is sized correctly. If the accuracy holds up beyond 50 yards or maybe 60 yards or maybe even 70 yards then they are a better choice than round ball. If not I'll stick with round balls which are hard to beat to at least 50 yards.

Hah! I am still trying to do better than the lowly round ball and not really succeeding! But then I do like round balls too!

By the way if you want the cat to type for you, you should show it that there is more than one key on the keyboard! I had the dog at work with me last week but I failed to teach him how to 3D model in SolidWorks. Too bad, I'd rather stay home and sleep while he works. Oh well. He's 9 1/2 so at retirement age anyway, like me. Coming soon!

Well that was a bit wordy then wasn't it?

Longbow

[jmort]

The Lee slug will have great terminal effect. I love meplats and Lead Bullets/Slugs Technology. BTW, at least to 50 yards, this is impressive

[longbow]

Are you using soft lead or wheelweights for slugs? At 524 grs, I'd guess pure lead.

Are you filling the cavities?

Every Lyman slug I've found shows compressed/collapsed skirt. Not saying it is a bad thing as long as it is consistent. In fact it could be a good thing if the skirt expands to fill the bore tightly against wad petals.

And yes, that is impressive! I am guessing recoil is pretty impressive with 44 grs. of Blue Dot too!

Longbow

[Hogtamer]

Yes fill the cavities...overfill with hot glue then trim flush with hot blade after glue sets. Cheap, easy and effective. Yes, soft lead. Compared them shot for shot and soft lead significantly improved accuracy. No doubt that load jmort posted will work, I use a different wad and hull but same result at 50 yds, 3" group at 100, loaded over longshot to similar velocity. Maybe tighter for younger fellow behind the gun. Field tested to my satisfaction against clay banks and about 15 hogs. Longest was 103 measured yds through one's heart. Haven't recovered a slug from an animal yet. This from rifled barrel. Awesome killing slug to at least 100 yds.

[longbow]

Now if only I could do that with a smoothbore...

Even 6" at 100 yards would do me! Did it with AQ's but not home made... yet!

If you are getting 3" groups at 100 yards there is no reason to look for anything better I would say. That would keep me very happy! Why you could go on a varmint hunt with that accuracy. Might be a bit overkill for gophers but... can you ever have too much gun? Or in this case boolit?

Got to get me a rifled barrel for the Slugster!

Longbow

[Ranch Dog]

Very impressive work, jmort, and thank you for the details provided! Saving that image to go back to the NOE offering of the same.

[jmort]

Sorry guys, I cannot take credit for that
Found it in Google images as I am working on loads for the Mihec clone
Thought it was useful so I posted it
I have yet to duplicate a group that good
That is a lead slug, not an alloy, out of a rifled 870

[W.R.Buchanan]

Now if only I could do that with a smoothbore...

Even 6" at 100 yards would do me! Did it with AQ's but not home made... yet! Longbow

Have you seen the Raven Crossbow? 3" at 100 yards,,, from a Crossbow! $1500 US

Maybe we should be designing Crossbow Bolts instead of slugs.

On another note: Talked to BPI today and found out the slugs that they sell which have the plug in wads all come from Italy. That's DGS slugs, Thunderbolts and Thug Slugs. I suspected as much as I got 5 Thunderbolts given to me by the maker at SHOT a few years ago, but never connected the dots. BPI gets $2 ea for those slugs!

He also told me that many guys routinely get <3" groups at 100 yards with various slugs and concoctions, and that we are on the right track.

This pretty much confirms that the Italians invented this type of slug/wad combo, and then the Russians knocked it off.

We need to be coming up with our own projectiles. And we already have the Lyman Sabot, the STI slug/wad combo, and the Foster Style Slug. I guess Lightfield has their own slug as well, and there's probably a few others I don't know about.

Maybe a Foster/Brenneke Hybrid could be something new?

Back to Roll Crimping: My STI Slugs loaded in AA hulls come out about 1/8" longer than the same slugs loaded into previously fired Federal Slug hulls. However they do roll crimp cleanly and after I trim about 1/8' off the front end of the fired hulls they should crimp perfectly. I think those hulls have a longer base wad in them which would account for the difference in loaded length. ( Actually on closer inspection the STI wad is the same length as the Blue Claybuster wad for the Lyman Sabot Slugs but the Hammerhead sticks out an extra 1/8" and the crimp extends about 1/16 beyond that.)

So far I have loaded several Federal hulls with STI slugs and roll crimped them with the BPI tool, and you saw the pics of those earlier. Pretty happy with that tool as it puts a nice taper on the front end of the cartridge which will aid in feeding in the mag fed guns. Those Federal hulls are the best crimps I've done so far.

The Fiocchi hull on the left was the first one I did and it came out OK. The blue one is a factory loaded Foster Slug.

Definitely need a Hull Vise and will be drawing up something in the next few days. I see deficiencies in everything I have seen out there so far, and I can do better.

Randy

[gpidaho]

Well guys, after a few days thought, I've come up with a roll crimp station that works pretty good. I found one of those old Craftsman jigs that turns a drill motor into a drill press buy just clamping the drill into the stand. I used a Dewalt 18v battery drill and have a trigger holder using a sip-tie and a small wedge (Arkie engineering at it's best} this allows a very slow RPM that is adjustable And leaves one hand free to hold the hull with some channel locks and the other to control the up-down lever. Fairly low tech but it works really well. Gp

[dsh1106]

Well guys, after a few days thought, I've come up with a roll crimp station that works pretty good. I found one of those old Craftsman jigs that turns a drill motor into a drill press buy just clamping the drill into the stand. I used a Dewalt 18v battery drill and have a trigger holder using a sip-tie and a small wedge (Arkie engineering at it's best} this allows a very slow RPM that is adjustable And leaves one hand free to hold the hull with some channel locks and the other to control the up-down lever. Fairly low tech but it works really well. Gp

I did the same thing, until I found my hand crank unit. I split a piece of pvc and used that to clamp the over the hull.

Scott

[Cap'n Morgan]

Definitely need a Hull Vise and will be drawing up something in the next few days. I see deficiencies in everything I have seen out there so far, and I can do better.

Randy

I made a fancy shell holder once, but after seeing the Italian roto-crimper Rolls Royce, I believe a small hard wood board or similar with a tapered hole about 15-20 degree included angle will be both faster and better than a dedicated vice.

[longbow]

Now there's a guy that's thinking!

I had been thinking myself but more along the lines of a simple "tong" tool with hole for hull lined with rubber (inner tube?)... open around the hull squeeze closed like a mould or pliers, crimp then open and release.

You are right though that Italian press uses what appears to be a stepped conical recess to suit different rim sizes. Your tapered hole idea is well worth a try... no moving parts!

As my old drawing/design checker used to say "Simplicity is the ultimate technology." "The fewer moving parts the better."

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

Gp; my dad gave me his Craftsman Mini Drill Press and I ran it with my Milwaukee 3/8 Drill Motor for years. You can mount the drill upside down also and it makes an excellent tool for chamfering primer pockets when you have a zillion to do.

Plug in Drill Motors usually have a "stay on" function on the trigger.

Here's a Pic

Randy

[W.R.Buchanan]

today I got the BPI hull trimmer in along with some overshot cards and a jug of Mica.

The hull trimmer works pretty good after I put a big chamfer on the hull guide.

I cut down a few hulls then loaded them with 9 pellets of 0 Buckshot ( Lee .319 balls tumbled!) Lyman Slugs and Lee Slugs I just made yesterday.

All roll crimped with the BPI Roll Crimper at 150 rpms.

The hulls were new style AA's and I was surprised how thick the plastic is on those hulls. I cut @1/4" off the front which got most of the previous crimp off.

The 4 shells shown below, 2 on the left are buckshot with a 12 ga overshot card. The other 2 are Lyman and Lee Slugs. The Fiocchi hull produced the smoothest crimp as the others all had the very last of the previous crimp folds left which showed up right at the top. Still these were decent and repeatable.

Starting to get the hang of Roll Crimping. Now to go shoot all of them up and start again.

Randy

[swamp]

I just ordered the BPI trimmer and a hand operated roll crimper. Going to give it a try.
swamp

[W.R.Buchanan]

Well guys, after a few days thought, I've come up with a roll crimp station that works pretty good. I found one of those old Craftsman jigs that turns a drill motor into a drill press buy just clamping the drill into the stand. I used a Dewalt 18v battery drill and have a trigger holder using a sip-tie and a small wedge (Arkie engineering at it's best} this allows a very slow RPM that is adjustable And leaves one hand free to hold the hull with some channel locks and the other to control the up-down lever. Fairly low tech but it works really well. Gp

I got mine out and cleaned it up, but I'm using my Milwaukee Drill Motor. I have a plug in Rheostat that will allow me to run that drill motor down to an acceptable speed. Gonna put it to work tomorrow.

Randy

[W.R.Buchanan]

Here's a device I made today, not much to this one but it works fairly well and doesn't make your hand cramp.

It is a Hull Holder for Roll Crimping and it consists of a piece of 1/2" aluminum plate, this one just happens to be 2 3/8 x 3" cuz had it laying around with a .812 hole thru it, off center.

I measured a bunch of hulls and they were all from .807-.812 in dia at the base. (not the rim) So I made the hole .812.

My original Idea had the plate cocking slightly to hold onto the hull. In actual use you push down on the plate and keep the base of the hull flat on the table and I guess the hull is held in place by downward pressure on the rim. Either way it works.

I built these 5 rounds this afternoon based on AA hulls with the previous crimp cut off, to test the tool. They are loaded with 20 gr of Green Dot (Trap Load) and a Blue Wad with a 1/4" Felt Wad and Lee 1 oz slug on top then Roll Crimped using the Lyman tool at @140-150 rpms. I did this on my Mill Vise but it could have been done on the drill press or with a hand drill just as easily. The tool holds the hull pretty well with minimal downward pressure.

Feel Free to knock this one off. It could probably be made from wood or plastic.

Randy

[tomme boy]

Simple and it works!

[gpidaho]

I like that. Like tome boy said, simple.