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Thread: Lets discuss the topic of Roll Crimping lots to here need to get it all in one place.

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ranch Dog View Post
    I think the Lee Loader won't work with slugs. Might get there with a buckshot load with an overshot card on top of it, but I'd rather use a star for that. I used a Lee 1-ounce slug with a Lighting 078 pressure wad. Instead of powder, was using BPI filler to get the right component stack height. With the tools in the kit, it just isn't going to roll the sides down. This is the best example I have, and it is very sloppy.
    I suspected the original Lee Loader would not work well with plastic shells. Even with paper hulls, forming the RTO crimp requires pumping the Lee crimp ram up and down to form a smooth finished crimp.
    Last edited by RMc; 12-14-2018 at 08:43 PM.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsh1106 View Post
    Randy

    If you have an old "Yankee Push Drill" that might have enough resistance to use with the Lyman roll crimp head, for a completely portable unit.

    Scott
    Maybe, however consider this:

    In the early 1960s, Lyman Easy shotshell loaders could be had with or converted to have a spiral ratchet roll crimp station. This "push drill" arrangement worked well with paper hulls, but not so much with plastic hulls. The roll crimp option was apparently soon dropped, except in 10 gauge*, although the Lyman Easy shotshell loader stayed in production through the 1970s.

    *The grand ole' ten bore was among the last of the "gauges" to transition to fold crimps and plastic hulls.
    Last edited by RMc; 12-14-2018 at 08:26 PM.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by gpidaho View Post
    I'm having a hard time getting past this Italian crimp station. I can't see why I would NEED one but I sure do WANT one. LOL Gp
    I appears, from this side of the pond at least, most European shotshell loading equipment is designed primarily for loading new hulls. On the other hand American shotshell loading equipment is obviously geared to reloading previously fold crimped fired hulls.

    Frankly the powered spool/crimp finisher die stations mimic the high speed loading equipment in use by major shotshell manufacturers. That is why fold crimp shotshells emerging from the "Italian crimp station" look like new factory loaded shells.
    Last edited by RMc; 12-14-2018 at 08:42 PM.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by RMc View Post
    Maybe, however consider this:

    In the early 1960s, Lyman Easy shotshell loaders could be had with or converted to have a spiral ratchet roll crimp station. This "push drill" arrangement worked well with paper hulls, but not so much with plastic hulls. The roll crimp option was apparently soon dropped, except in 10 gauge*, although the Lyman Easy shotshell loader stayed in production through the 1970s.

    *The grand ole' ten bore was among the last of the "gauges" to transition to fold crimps and plastic hulls.

    RMc

    I have a Lyman Easy Loader setup with the roll crimping station and works fine with most of the hulls I've tried. Some of the roll crimp pictures I posted were produced on my Easy Loader.

    Scott
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  5. #85
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    Scott set me up with a great little Lyman Easy Loader. They are nice little machines. I decided to save a little money by buying the other Russian Federation roll crimper instead of the Italian machine. These are hand held and the crimp head is just screwed down like tightening a C-clamp. At $30 I figure I saved over $1,500. I'll let you know how it works. Gp the gadget king.

  6. #86
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    Well after I played with the Lee Loader again I remember why it normally lives in the bottom of my Die Cabinet.

    Once again I was unable to get it to produce anything usable and I wasted 2 hulls trying. So I'm out another .08.
    Also the AA hulls I have need to be trimmed before I can make a Roll Crimp on them. They were having nothing to do with either roll crimper I have now which resulted in having to take them apart.

    I normally use the DL266 for loading this type of stuff and it does everything well. I can take them up to the step before the roll crimp or finish with a Fold Crimp. The one thing I like about the BPI Roll Crimper is it tapers the front of the hull after rolling the crimp in, and this will aid in feeding in the A5 and Mossbergs.

    I got a Lyman Roll Crimper from Scott here on these threads and played with it a little today and it will require a little more study to get the results I think it is capable of.

    I definitely need a way to trim the mouths of fired hulls so that they will take a decent roll crimp, and I need to make myself a real hull vise to hold the hulls strait up and down so they are square on the end. My Mill Vise setup leaves a little to be desired, but I can't bring myself to buy a vise when I own a machine shop and just need to get out there and build it.

    All of this will come together in the coming weeks after the A5 gets home and I get a chance to shoot some slugs and figure out what works and what doesn't.

    I figured out today that roll crimping doesn't work very well on the Lyman Sabot Slug, fold crimping it is the way to go. I think Lyman actually stated that?

    I also have a Lee 1 oz slug mould coming that will take the place of the Lyman Foster slug mould that is one of the worst moulds I have ever had. Look for it soon on Ebay!

    One of the things that is looking like it is a solid is that Full Bore Slugs, or Slugs that protrude from the Sabot or Wad or are part of a Shuttlecock Style Slug need to be Roll Crimped, as the crimp physically keeps the slug from moving. And slugs or balls that are down inside the wad petals need to be Fold Crimped as the Roll Crimp won't be thick enough to block them from going out the front.

    Opinions requested on this last statement?

    Lots more left to discuss here.

    Randy
    Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 12-15-2018 at 12:16 AM.
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  7. #87
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    I am using the Lee 1 oz. slug. I fold crimp them and find a overshot card on top of the slug helps get a good crimp. Without it the crimp was pushed in. Not enough support from the slug alone.
    swamp
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  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsh1106 View Post
    RMc

    I have a Lyman Easy Loader setup with the roll crimping station and works fine with most of the hulls I've tried. Some of the roll crimp pictures I posted were produced on my Easy Loader.

    Scott
    I'm glad you are getting satisfactory RTO crimps from your Lyman Easy.
    I must have missed the pictures you mentioned. Links?

    I have been using Lyman Easy Loaders in several gauges for quite a few years and find them to be quite handy for most general purpose shotshell loading.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by RMc View Post
    I'm glad you are getting satisfactory RTO crimps from your Lyman Easy.
    I must have missed the pictures you mentioned. Links?

    I have been using Lyman Easy Loaders in several gauges for quite a few years and find them to be quite handy for most general purpose shotshell loading.
    RMc

    Pics posted here
    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...32#post4515432

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  10. #90
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    Randy:

    I laugh every tine I read your comments about the Lyman Foster slug mould! I think you have mentioned how much you don't like about as many times as I have warned people not to buy one! Which is every time the subject comes up!

    Of all the moulds I own and have owned it is undoubtedly the WORST! I have never figured out how to get it to cast well and release slugs. Having said that I haven't worked terribly hard at it because the slug just doesn't perform.

    With a thicker nose and thicker skirt to minimize deformation, and larger diameter to fit the bore, and if the slug would release from the core pin... a lot of "ands"! it might make a decent slug. I won't go on, you know the story. I am surprised Lyman has made those moulds for so long and not rectified the problems. My Lee slug moulds cast very well (as do my home made moulds) and are reasonably accurate right out of the box. Who'd want to pay 3x as much for the Lyman Foster mould?

    But to get back onto topic here, the one attribute I can think of for the Lyman Foster slug is that the hemispherical nose allows for a nice roll crimp and good looking load. Doesn't shoot worth beans but nice crimp.

    I often wonder which is better but I usually roll crimp slugs. Mostly so I can see they are slugs without marking hulls and segregating loads... well, not like I dump slug and birdshot loads into the same box but it is nice to have that visual "That one is a slug." indicator.

    If the MEC Slugger crimps as well as Ranch Dog is saying then surely dies can be made to fit a MEC 600 or Sizemaster... or whatever. Dontcha think?

    Hmmmmm... I wonder if Ranch Dog would make a casting of the inside of his dies?

    Longbow

  11. #91
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    MEC sells a 600 Slugger conversion kit

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmort View Post
    MEC sells a 600 Slugger conversion kit
    Not to sure about that. There was a Short Kit, but I don't think that is offered anymore as you change the height of the press like the other current production Mark V. This is a bit of a guess because the Slugger does not come with an specifics or at least mine didn't. It is all run of the mill 600 Mk 5 instructions.

    Quote Originally Posted by longbow View Post
    If the MEC Slugger crimps as well as Ranch Dog is saying then surely dies can be made to fit a MEC 600 or Sizemaster... or whatever. Dontcha think?

    Hmmmmm... I wonder if Ranch Dog would make a casting of the inside of his dies?
    Ahhh... not a chance. I'm receiving my replacement within the next couple of hours. When I was packing the press that I purchased, I turned it upside down and the insides first stage die was a mess. I'm certain the press that Midway sent me was a return but that is for MEC and MidwayUSA to figure out. I ran my finger up in the die when I started having problems, it was slick and smooth, but never looked up in the die. It is a scored up mess. Heck, it was supposed to be new. So, I'm not taking a chance on buggering anything.
    Michael

  13. #93
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    I was looking around, and it was a short kit for the slugger
    I guess it is too difficult to convert 600 to a slugger

  14. #94
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    Mike: When you get your Slugger back up and running would you try crimping a previously Fold Crimped hull? I would like to see if it will do it, and I think it will.

    I am trying to understand why that machine is $329 when a 600 jr is $250?

    The conversion kits on Ebay are @$40 and only include the shell holders. Not much to it. No complete machines on Ebay at all. I have a 15% off coupon I need to use today but can't find anything to buy! Darn.

    To advance forward,,, I went to one of our Last Gun Shows today and picked up a Lee .319 Round Ball Mould for $25 and last night I ordered a Hull Trimmer some Mica and some Overshot Cards from BPI.

    Randy
    Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 12-15-2018 at 07:35 PM.
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  15. #95
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    Perhaps the following may help:

    Mec specs:

    https://www.mecshootingsports.com/600-slugger


    Visual: Loading previously fired fold crimped hulls:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cF57Uu2wkSU
    Last edited by RMc; 12-16-2018 at 12:06 AM.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
    Mike: When you get your Slugger back up and running would you try crimping a previously Fold Crimped hull? I would like to see if it will do it, and I think it will.
    I've done it with a fresh hull and will try a shot hull when it arrives. It is still supposed to be here tonight.

    In that the crimp starter die was inop on the Slugger, with the fresh hull, I barely started the fold over using the Load All and then went back to the Slugger for crimp stations two and three.



    Nice and ironed out after the shot! No problems running another STI back in the hull without sizing.



    Quote Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
    I am trying to understand why that machine is $329 when a 600 jr is $250?
    Not being a smart alec, but probably because they can.

    Quote Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
    The conversion kits on Ebay are @$40 and only include the shell holders. Not much to it. No complete machines on Ebay at all. I have a 15% off coupon I need to use today but can't find anything to buy! Darn.
    I'm not sure what the Short Kit does as shell length is changed directly on the press with fine measurements made through the dies. When I talked to MEC about my press, the first thing they needed was the first digits of the serial number so I wonder if the press has changed. The product number of the Short Kits are not listed when searching the MEC website.

    If you search "slug" on the MEC site, a short kit for the Slug Master is brought up but I can find no reference to the that press on the web. I will probably talk to MEC again this week and try to get it sorted out.

    You are right about the lack of Sluggers, when I bought mine, that put them out of stock on Midway's website. I asked MEC if they were seasonal and the agent said no. He went and pulled one off the line while talking to me to make sure it was perfect.

    [
    Quote Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
    To advance forward,,, I went to one of our Last Gun Shows today and picked up a Lee .319 Round Ball Mould for $25 and last night I ordered a Hull Trimmer some Mica and some Overshot Cards from BPI.
    Dude, you are going to love that trimmer! I have his Knockout enroute to place on Station 1.

    I worked on some centerfire cartridges today, a lot less stressful!
    Michael

  17. #97
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    Anyone ever thought about sending their lymann foster to Eric at HPmoulds to open it up to cast it at bore diameter? That should solve the thin skirt and size problem.

  18. #98
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    Buckshot did that for someone on this site several years ago and the customer was happy. IIRC that was for smoothbore but should work well for rifled gun too. 4 driving bands were added so effectively three lube grooves. Post #10 below:

    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...n-foster-slugs

    The main problem with thickening up the nose and skirt is weight. A solid slug as long as the Lyman Foster would weight 600+ grs. I'm sure. The Dixie Tusker was 600 grs. and a very nice slug but designed for rifled gun. I don't think I'd want a slug of more than 600 grs. with the exception of the Paradox boolit. I do like those but they are solids so for rifled gun only and they weigh 740 grs. so a substantial amount of lead! They'd certainly be good for stopping bears... and large military vehicles too! A bit much for general plinking fun I suspect.

    One of the big problems with the Lyman Foster mould seems to be the core pin design. I would have thought there was enough taper for release but mine does not! I have read many similar comments. Mine is quite smooth though I haven't tried polishing it to see if that helps. More taper can be machined or a new pin made with more taper but again, that adds weight.

    I think an attached wad slug is the best bet for smoothbore and a solid or very thick skirted HB slug (for more bearing length but less weight) for rifled gun.

    Longbow

  19. #99
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    Maybe make the core pin out of aluminum like Lee? The expansion rate may let it release a little easier????

  20. #100
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    It may be that the taper is not quite enough and a small amount more would fix the sticking but I have no particular use for the slug being so much undersize anyway so haven't pursued it.

    The bigger question is why hasn't Lyman corrected this? The slug should be casting to either wad diameter of about 0.680" or bore diameter of about 0.729" not somewhere around 0.705" which does no-one any good. And fix the pin sticking? Both are easy fixes but they don't do it. Makes a guy wonder. Lyman had the only commercial slug mould for many years then Raping came along and they had some good slug designs but they closed down, then Lee came along with their wad slugs which are far superior to the Lyman Foster in my experience. Lyman came out with the 525 gr. wad slug which generally gets decent reviews but they should either fix or discontinue their full bore Foster slug. Adding some driving bands so it can be lubed properly while brining it to bore diameter, thickening the nose and putting a bit more taper on the core pin would likely fix it to a decent slug.

    My home made TC HB slug mould based on turbo1889's Brooks mould casts wonderfully well and is far more accurate than the Lyman Foster. My mistake there was not double checking the bore diameter of my single shot slug gun and making a mould that cast to 0.729" where the bore is 0.733"! DOH! After I realized my mistake I knurled slugs up then sized to 0.733" and that worked quite well. I'd say it is a 50 yard slug though... maybe somewhat further but I doubt 100 yard accuracy will be great.

    Now that I have the Mossberg Slugster with 0.729" bore I'll try some in that.

    Shorter story is that bore diameter slugs shoot much better than slugs that cast smaller than bore diameter so why does Lyman do that? Along with poor pin release I am surprised anyone still buys those moulds.

    There's arguments about a large meplat being a better design for killing but I don't hear any negatives about the Lee round nose slugs or round balls from muzzleloaders and I have to think that round nose/round ball or not a 12 ga. slug whistling through living tissue is going to do a lot of damage from shear diameter along. Not that a TC design or RNFP with large meplat would be a bag thing. Again, Rapine had a nice TC design. The Lyman Foster never has been nice.

    One man's opinion.

    Longbow

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check