Reloading 9mm is confusing...

[Idaho45guy]

Picked up my new Glock G19 Gen 5 MOS and have been trying out various loads for it.

The OALs listed for various loads and bullets are all over the place. Then throw in the fact that the Gen 5 Glocks have shorter throats, and it really is the wild west as far as actual OAL and loads.

I began by loading some 147gr XTPs and 124gr RMR JHPs to spec, I believe it was 1.169" and 1.110". Used the same recipes I had used for my Gen 4 G19. Went to the range and had some feeding issues; slide wouldn't go into battery. Took it apart and plunked some rounds and found the problem; too long.

I started experimenting with the barrel and some new loads using 124gr RMR JHPs and 124gr Winchester FMJs tonight. The Winchesters plunked fine with an OAL of 1.169, but the JHPs had to be down to 1.080 to plunk.

I'm not loading to max levels, so I'm not too concerned, but it's frustrating that there are at least four different OALs listed for the same weight and type of bullet depending on the powder.

Then I tried searching for the most accurate powder, bullet weights, and loads people have used and it is all over the place. So far, I've used TiteGroup, Ramshot Silhouette, and Unique with no real discernible pattern other than all TiteGroup loads were the worst.

Tonight I loaded up two loads using 5.0 gr of WSF. Both 124gr and one with RMR 124gr JHPs at 1.080 OAL and the other with the Winchesters FMJs.

It seemed with .40 S&W, 10mm, and .45 Colt, there was much more consistency as far as what powders and bullets were working with far fewer OALs thrown in the mix.

From what I've seen, the most important thing is to make sure the rounds will plunk, then adjust the powder levels accordingly.

My first range session was disappointing with factory ammo being more accurate than my reloads. I always have gotten the opposite result in all other calibers.

I did loosen up my crimp a bit as I discovered it was a bit too tight.

But, I love how the pistol feels and will keep playing with different combinations until I find one that works.

[Walks]

Dude,

Plunking loaded rounds for every new load is a MUST !!

[Grmps]

9MM has a tapered case. the biggest mistake people make is over crimping the case and downsizing the boolits.

Don't crimp any hard than it takes to keep the boolit from moving when you push the cartridge against your bench.

pull a crimped boolit and mic it to make sure your no over crimping it and downsizing the boolit.

and it's a Glock

[Forrest r]

wst & aa#2 are your friend when it comes to accuracy in the 9mm's.

[tazman]

I have no experience loading for a Glock. I load for 5 other 9mm manufacturers and the chamber dimensions and groove diameters are all over the place as well as the throat sometimes being nonexistent(rifling comes right up to the chamber mouth).
It can be a pain to deal with all the differences as well as all the boolit profiles. Some weapons prefer one shape over another as well as needing different diameter boolits to work the best in different barrels.
Sometimes the dimensions vary even between guns from the same manufacturer.
Getting specific loading data for your particular weapon can be difficult in that respect. The only real way to do it is to work up a load through trial and testing to find out what your particular gun likes.
I have ammunition at home that works great in one pistol but not so well or not at all in another. One gun will eat anything and others are very picky.
You can set up ammunition so it will work in all your guns, but it may not be the best for any of them.
9mm can be difficult in that regard.

[phonejack]

I'm going thru the same thing since I bought a 19X last summer. Oal, accuracy, etc. compared to my other 9mm's.

[BNE]

9mm has been a problem for me. The Lee final crimp die helped a lot. Before that I was having to label different groups of bullets as to what gun they would fit in! I think powder coating has added another layer of good / bad: the ogive is thicker, and sometimes that caused “plunk” problems, but so far I have not gotten any leading with them either.

I have not even gotten to accuracy testing yet.

[Petrol & Powder]

9mm Luger can be a problem child when it comes to reloading and it can be an evil problem child when you add cast bullets to the mix.

As for powders, I've used just about all of them but always came back to WSF for 9mm. I finally just landed the plane and just always use WSF for 9mm.

I am not a fan of 147 grain bullets in 9mm. Yes, they can be very accurate but that's about the only good thing I can say about heavy for caliber 9mm loads. The 147 grain bullet was originally designed as a subsonic load for suppressed 9mm weapons and that's where it should stay - IMO.

The 9mm does its best work with the 115-125 grain bullets and my preference may be slightly tilted towards the 125 grain end of that range.

I totally agree with Tazman concerning the differences in chambers/barrels for various 9mm pistols. The barrel dimensions for 9mm pistols are all over the map. I can create a 38 Special cartridge that will perform well in multiple guns but when it comes to 9mm Luger and a cast bullet, I have to load for a specific firearm.

So for 9mm Luger the first criteria is the cartridge must fit in the magazine and reliably feed in the pistol. That's generally a function of cartridge length and bullet shape. Even when loading round nose FMJ bullets I tend to keep my COL on the long end of the COL range for 9mm. Then, that COL and bullet type must be safe in terms of pressure; this brings up another issue with 9mm Luger and that it is a high pressure cartridge with a small case capacity. You can get into trouble fast if you're near the upper limit of the powder charge weight and the lower limit of COL.

OK, that's the warnings and the bad news - here's the good news: Once you find the perfect combination of bullet style, COL, powder charge weight, etc. - you can end up with excellent performance.

I can load 115-125 grain FMJ bullets into various casings with a COL between 1.130" and 1.160" (generally closer to the 1.160" if the magazine & chamber will allow it) and get a round that will function in just about any 9mm pistol. If a hollowpoint bullet is used you have to make sure the profile will function with your pistol. I've hand loaded a few different HP designs but frankly it's just not worth it to me for a practice round. If I need expanding bullets for a 9mm I'll just buy a box of factory loaded cartridges of a type that I know will function in my pistol. Good news here - A Glock will work with a large variety of factory loaded HP's.

With a cast bullet I experimented with several different bullet types and the 120 grain truncated cone [TC] is still the top performer for me, YMMV. However, with a cast bullet you have another issue and that's bullet diameter. Again, 9mm pistols tend to be all over the map in terms of barrel dimensions and jacketed bullets tolerate those variances better than cast bullets.

So - to sum up:
With a jacketed bullet my advice is to stay in the 115-125 grain range.
Keep your COL on the long end of whatever works with your mag and pistol.
Use just enough taper crimp to securely hold the bullet in the casing.
I recommend staying with WSF powder.


With a JHP - same as above but select a HP profile that is close to a round nose FMJ profile (The old Federal 9BPLE 115 gr would feed in just about any pistol - just saying ).

When using a cast bullet, same as above but size the bullet to the largest possible diameter that will fit you barrel and chamber.


================================================== ===============================


Using Winchester's data for 9mm and WSF powder:

115 gr FMJ; 4.9 - 5.7 grains of WSF (5.4 works well for me)
124 gr FMJ; 4.7 - 5.3 grains of WSF (with a COL of 1.160" I run 124gr FMJ right at 5.3 grains of WSF)

[sparkyv]

I have no experience loading for a Glock. I load for 5 other 9mm manufacturers and the chamber dimensions and groove diameters are all over the place as well as the throat sometimes being nonexistent(rifling comes right up to the chamber mouth).
It can be a pain to deal with all the differences as well as all the boolit profiles. Some weapons prefer one shape over another as well as needing different diameter boolits to work the best in different barrels.
Sometimes the dimensions vary even between guns from the same manufacturer.
Getting specific loading data for your particular weapon can be difficult in that respect. The only real way to do it is to work up a load through trial and testing to find out what your particular gun likes.
I have ammunition at home that works great in one pistol but not so well or not at all in another. One gun will eat anything and others are very picky.
You can set up ammunition so it will work in all your guns, but it may not be the best for any of them.
9mm can be difficult in that regard.

Couldn't have said it any better, tazman.

[razorfish]

I’ve been loading cast bullets in 9mm for a while. I’ve loaded and fired tens of thousands cast/Hi-Tek coated over the past few years alone. I’ve learned a few lessons along the way.

The plunk test is an absolute necessity to match a particular bullet profile with a particular barrel. I tend to find the maximum length for a given barrel and then back down a few thousandths.

There seems to be lots of confusion regarding the taper crimp especially relating to 9mm Luger. The taper crimp has absolutely NOTHING to do with holding the bullet in 9mm. In fact, excessive crimp can actually reduce neck tension due to the tapered shape of the 9mm Luger case. Bullet tension/neck tension is controlled with the sizing die and the sizing die only. If you need more tension, lower your sizing die. Only use enough taper crimp to remove any flare/bell you added to seat the bullet. (And use a generous flare when seating coated bullets to avoid scratching the coating)

Fast powders in combination with a heavier bullet in 9mm reduce “felt recoil” which aids in fast follow up shots. You see virtually all competitive action pistol shooters using fast powders with a bullet ranging from 124-150 grains. Now, this says nothing about accuracy as I only need to reliably hit a USPSA A zone at 25 yards. My go to loads are a 149 grain Magma groove-less round nose bullet over WST powder and a 135 grain Magma over VV N320. As mentioned above, be very careful using fast powders with heavy bullets as pressure builds rapidly in the small case of a 9mm. For me, WSF is bit slow and “harsh” but it may yield a more accurate round.

Note that I’m talking about regular 9mm Luger loads aka 9 minor with power factors under 140 and not 9mm Major (165+ power factors). 9 Major rounds generally uses slow powders under lighter bullets to create lots of gas to operate compensators.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Idaho45guy]

9mm Luger can be a problem child when it comes to reloading and it can be an evil problem child when you add cast bullets to the mix.

As for powders, I've used just about all of them but always came back to WSF for 9mm. I finally just landed the plane and just always use WSF for 9mm.

I am not a fan of 147 grain bullets in 9mm. Yes, they can be very accurate but that's about the only good thing I can say about heavy for caliber 9mm loads. The 147 grain bullet was originally designed as a subsonic load for suppressed 9mm weapons and that's where it should stay - IMO.

The 9mm does its best work with the 115-125 grain bullets and my preference may be slightly tilted towards the 125 grain end of that range.

I totally agree with Tazman concerning the differences in chambers/barrels for various 9mm pistols. The barrel dimensions for 9mm pistols are all over the map. I can create a 38 Special cartridge that will perform well in multiple guns but when it comes to 9mm Luger and a cast bullet, I have to load for a specific firearm.

So for 9mm Luger the first criteria is the cartridge must fit in the magazine and reliably feed in the pistol. That's generally a function of cartridge length and bullet shape. Even when loading round nose FMJ bullets I tend to keep my COL on the long end of the COL range for 9mm. Then, that COL and bullet type must be safe in terms of pressure; this brings up another issue with 9mm Luger and that it is a high pressure cartridge with a small case capacity. You can get into trouble fast if you're near the upper limit of the powder charge weight and the lower limit of COL.

OK, that's the warnings and the bad news - here's the good news: Once you find the perfect combination of bullet style, COL, powder charge weight, etc. - you can end up with excellent performance.

I can load 115-125 grain FMJ bullets into various casings with a COL between 1.130" and 1.160" (generally closer to the 1.160" if the magazine & chamber will allow it) and get a round that will function in just about any 9mm pistol. If a hollowpoint bullet is used you have to make sure the profile will function with your pistol. I've hand loaded a few different HP designs but frankly it's just not worth it to me for a practice round. If I need expanding bullets for a 9mm I'll just buy a box of factory loaded cartridges of a type that I know will function in my pistol. Good news here - A Glock will work with a large variety of factory loaded HP's.

With a cast bullet I experimented with several different bullet types and the 120 grain truncated cone [TC] is still the top performer for me, YMMV. However, with a cast bullet you have another issue and that's bullet diameter. Again, 9mm pistols tend to be all over the map in terms of barrel dimensions and jacketed bullets tolerate those variances better than cast bullets.

So - to sum up:
With a jacketed bullet my advice is to stay in the 115-125 grain range.
Keep your COL on the long end of whatever works with your mag and pistol.
Use just enough taper crimp to securely hold the bullet in the casing.
I recommend staying with WSF powder.


With a JHP - same as above but select a HP profile that is close to a round nose FMJ profile (The old Federal 9BPLE 115 gr would feed in just about any pistol - just saying ).

When using a cast bullet, same as above but size the bullet to the largest possible diameter that will fit you barrel and chamber.


================================================== ===============================


Using Winchester's data for 9mm and WSF powder:

115 gr FMJ; 4.9 - 5.7 grains of WSF (5.4 works well for me)
124 gr FMJ; 4.7 - 5.3 grains of WSF (with a COL of 1.160" I run 124gr FMJ right at 5.3 grains of WSF)

Excellent!

Working another 12hr shift tonight, then going on a week long trip to Southern Idaho to visit my sister and do some jack rabbit hunting, so no idea when I can get to the range and see what my new WSF loads will do.

It's funny that you swear by WSF while others swear by TiteGroup, and others swear by 231, and others still Unique...

Your thoughts on the bullet profile being paramount made a lot of sense. That explains why the 124gr RMR JHP had to be set so deep while the 124gr FMJ profile could be at the recommended 1.169".

I was really hoping that the RMR bullets would be the cat's meow as they are a local company and you can get their excellent JHPs for $.09 a round.

[charlie b]

I've liked the AA series (2,5,7) in pistols for a couple of decades. The AA7 loads with 115gn round nose (plated, the cheap stuff) work well for me. I do load them somewhere between max and +P levels. I don't shoot with a rest and am not that good anymore but they go where the gun is pointed. The 3" gong takes a lot of hits at 35yds.

[dragon813gt]

The 9mm does its best work with the 115-125 grain bullets and my preference may be slightly tilted towards the 125 grain end of that range.

This is entirely gun dependent. None of mine shoot the best w/ 115. Some are best w/ 135. Others prefer 147 and up. I let the gun determine what works best.

As far OALs go. Your barrel is your case gauge. If it has a nonexistent throat send it out to be reamed or do it yourself. It’s an easy process. Well it might not be if the Glock barrel is hardened. If it is, sending it out is money well spent.

Any of the fast pistol powders will work. Like anything some will work better than others. I’ve been using Green Dot lately even though you need an old manual to find loads. What you will find is heavier bullets prefer slightly slower powders. Universal is my choice for 147 and up.

W/ the cost of jacketed bullets I don’t bother much w/ cast. Outside of a Mihec mold that casts a 135 grain FP and the 155 grain TC-ELCO I don’t cast any other bullets. And I have over twenty molds just for 9mm. Maybe one day I will buy BT’s 9mm dies and not worry about ever casting a 9mm bullet again.

[reddog81]

1.169 isn't the recommended OAL, it's the max OAL for 9mm. No hollow point or truncated cone will work at all 1.169. Most bullets with that kind of profile will be 1.1 or less. For some bullets 1.05 is the max.

[uscra112]

Power Pistol. Supposedly was formulated to make major in the 9mm. I only handload for a P-1 Walther, because it's fussy. From Glocks I know nothing. But you would expect that there would be some incentive for pistol makers to use a standard SAAMI throat, wouldn't you? Sheesh.

[Idaho45guy]

1.169 isn't the recommended OAL, it's the max OAL for 9mm. No hollow point or truncated cone will work at all 1.169. Most bullets with that kind of profile will be 1.1 or less. For some bullets 1.05 is the max.

I don't think anyone else has declared that.

I was under the impression that the length listed was the length at which the max and min powder amounts will give the stated pressures. If it says 1.169, then loading the stated amount of powder for that particular bullet will result in the corresponding pressure. Seating the bullet deeper will result in increased pressures.

Am I wrong about that?

And why doesn't the manual say "Max C.O.L"?

Attachment 231732

[sureYnot]

I don't think anyone else has declared that.

I was under the impression that the length listed was the length at which the max and min powder amounts will give the stated pressures. If it says 1.169, then loading the stated amount of powder for that particular bullet will result in the corresponding pressure. Seating the bullet deeper will result in increased pressures.

Am I wrong about that?

And why doesn't the manual say "Max C.O.L"?

Attachment 231732

I can answer you question, in part. Was playing around with quickload recently and (for the recipe I was looking at) found that for each 0.01 the C.O.A.L was shortened, a lesser charge by 0.1gn resulted in roughly the same pressure. Max would be determined by the gun and whether or not the bullet is still in the case, I'm thinking. Someone smarter than me might have better stuff to say about it.

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk

[Tom W.]

The two Glocks I had were Gen 4 9mm, and they would fire anything I'd feed them.I mostly used the Lee 124 gr (?) TC sized to .358. These also shoot well in my Ruger LC9s Pro.

My CZ 75 SP-01 is a different beast. It won't shoot but a very few .358 diameter boolits, but will shoot those sized to .357 quite well.

I use Bullseye powder without any trouble at all....

[reddog81]

Your thoughts on the bullet profile being paramount made a lot of sense. That explains why the 124gr RMR JHP had to be set so deep while the 124gr FMJ profile could be at the recommended 1.169".

Your post makes it sound like you believed 1.169 was the recommended OAL for 9mm. 1.169 is the Max SAAMI OAL. The reloading manuals state the OAL they were using. Seating a bullet deeper will result in more pressure. Often times people are using similar yet not the same bullets and seating the bullet deeper might be necessary. Some guns have generous throats and allow you to seat out longer.

I generally find the max OAL my guns will work with and make up a dummy cartridge with no primer/powder once I find that OAL and use that to help when adjusting the seating die from various bullets.

[dragon813gt]

But you would expect that there would be some incentive for pistol makers to use a standard SAAMI throat, wouldn't you? Sheesh.

You’d think the groove diameters would all be the same as well. But this isn’t the case and they typically range from .355(less common) to .358(more common). If there’s one thing manufacturers do well it’s make everything different from the competitor.