44 Magnum lever guns: 1:38 Twist - WHY?

[MSD MIke]

My newer (Miroku) 1892 Winchester in 44 Mag uses a 1:26 twist. I have not slugged my barrel but size to .432 with good results. Same size works for my Ruger SBH so I'm happy. I have not shot groups on paper off the bench but accuracy seems quite good and I have only shot bullet weights up to 250Gr. Paper plates, milk jugs, water bottle etc. are always in danger out to 100 yards. I don't hunt but I think the accuracy is just fine in the 100 yard range for hunting purposes. If you don't mind the $$ outlay for the Winchester it's worth a try.
By the way, it says 44 mag ONLY on the barrel but mine works perfectly with 44 Special.

Mike

[W.R.Buchanan]

As noted, the 1:38" twist seems to be a historical twist from the .44-40's or even prior. Why the "fat" bores? Well, I have never seen any reasonable explanation as to why a rifle chambered for a handgun cartridge with SAAMI spec of 0.429" groove diameter should be saddled with a 0.431" groove diameter. Makes no sense to me at all but that's the way it is.

Fed "fat" boolits (0.432"+) my 1894 performs satisfactorily with boolits up to about 270 gr. Ranch Dog says his 300 gr. design stabilizes in 1:38" twist, out to 300 yards IIRC, and I have been told that 300 gr. WFN's also stabilize in 1:38" twist at max. velocities but those are heavies I didn't get around to trying. I decided I'd stick with 270 gr. and under which seem to work fine. I didn't want to be running max. loads all the time just to get a heavy boolit to stabilize.

My moulds:

- Mihec H&G #504 @ 0.434" (258 gr.)
- Mihec 434640 @ 0.434" (270 gr.)
- Accurate #43-165B @ 0.433" (165 gr.)
- Ranch Dog/Lee 265 gr. @ 0.432" (IIRC) (265 gr.)

All fat!

Why not use a faster twist? I can't think of a good reason and I am surprised that Marlin and others didn't do that some time ago. 1:20" or slightly slower should work just fine for light to very heavy boolits in both .44 mag. and 444 Marlin.

I understand the complaint but there are reasonable solutions that work well enough... then of course there is re-barreling but that is a bit extreme.

Longbow

LB: the reason is because the .44 Magnum in factory loaded ammo is a 35K psi round. The SAAMI Spec for the bore dia is .431+/-.002 for rifles as opposed to .429 +/- .002 for revolvers is there to mitigate pressures. A Revolver has a place to vent gasses IE; the cylinder gap. A Rifle has a closed and locked breech. IE: no place for excess pressure to go but out the barrel.

The Marlin action is good for @43,500 psi and .47K psi is supposed to be blow up. As you know it is not that hard to load a .44 mag case beyond factory loads. So as a CYA move they made the barrels on rifles bigger to reduce pressures.

As you are right about the 1:38 twist being a hold over from the .44-40 and 200 gr boolits. Believe me, many knowledgeable people have been trying to get Marlin to change to 1:20 1: 18 or even a 1:16 twist for years, and they haven't done anything yet. I and other will harass them again this year at SHOT and they will say they are considering it but nothing will happen.

The accepted boolit for the .44 Magnum cartridge is 240-260 gr. That's what it was designed around. I shoot 429421 and 429244 exclusively in my gun and get more than acceptable accuracy. Best group from my 1894 CB with 24" bbl. was 1.75" at 100 yards with a Lyman Receiver Sight and XS Front Sight.

Either of these boolits will go clean thru an Elk in any direction at 900 fps, and they are coming out at 1600+ from the rifle. The whole "Big Secret" to accuracy from these rifles is to run these 250 gr boolits fast enough so the slow rifling stabilizes them. Anything from about 1400 fps on up will work on a 250 gr boolit. And since bigger boolits are not necessary or Elmer would have designed them, the need to run 300+ gr boolits is not really there for anything you'd choose to shoot with one of these guns.

My .02 on this subject.

Randy

[Outpost75]

^^^^^this!^^^^^

[alamogunr]

I've been going thru my molds looking for something to try in the Browning 92 w/1:38 barrel. I found 4 molds that might work if they drop big enough.

RCBS 44-250-K, RCBS 44-250-SWC, RCBS 44-240-SWC and SAECO #442(246 gr. RN). The 3 RCBS molds look to be unused. I suspect I got them off eBay about 20 years ago, before molds went out of sight.

Each of these is 2 cavity iron. I don't remember where I got them and had forgotten I had them. I guess I drank the heavy boolit Kool-Aid.

Now to cast a few from each and hope they aren't undersized.

[longbow]

In my opinion... for what it's worth, Marlin would have been better off to make an action that would withstand the predicted pressures rather than a Mickey Mouse design with oversize groove diameter to vent off pressure. With the materials available today they could have simply used a stronger steel grade and maintained typical .43 mag. (.429") bore dimensions.

Since most of us are probably loading our fat cast boolits to "J" bullet load data for max loads it is likely a mute point as the guns seem to hold up without the ability to "vent".

As for the 1:38" twist, that is just silly. A 1:20" twist wouldn't hurt anything the gun/cartridge does now but would allow use of heavy boolits for those that want them. Just because a guy doesn't need it doesn't mean he shouldn't be able to use it, especially since heavies work in handgun and are commonly used in handgun. After all, no-one really "needs" a 500 gr. or heavier boolit in a .45-70 either but there's lots of boolits and moulds available.

I gave up on trying to get usable accuracy from my 1894 with 300 gr. boolits. I don't "need" it but wanted it and in my penetration testing 300 gr. boolits definitely out penetrated lighter boolits all loaded to max. At subsonic or reduced loads the heavy boolits have their uses I think. It's hard to beat mass. I think metallic silhouette shooters rediscovered that some yeas ago.

I was toying with the idea of a .44 mag wildcat... sort of... by using a long heavy boolit seated out and with long throat to suit. The Gunn design for .45 subsonic use scaled to .434" at about 400 grs. was my choice. Of course that would require a very fast twist likely 1:16" or faster to stabilize. I like big heavy boolits even if they are slow.

Longbow

[Nobade]

I was toying with the idea of a .44 mad wildcat... sort of... by using a long heavy boolit seated out and with long throat to suit. The Gunn design for .45 subsonic use scaled to .434" at about 400 grs. was my choice. Of course that would require a very fast twist likely 1:16" or faster to stabilize. I like big heavy boolits even if they are slow.

Longbow

You should see what a 1894 Marlin will do with the bullets seated out to touch the lands. In my own rifle, the RCBS 240 sil seats with only the gascheck in the case, and with appropriate powders and amounts easily outdoes 445 supermag ballistics and isn't too far from 444 Marlin. Of course it's single shot only and you can't eject a loaded round, but boy does it shoot well and hit hard. And no sight changes needed from 50m to 200m when I use it for cowboy silhouette. That RCBS mould throws at 428" so I size them to .427" and paper patch up to .433". Fits perfectly.

[W.R.Buchanan]

My 24" 1894 CB with the 260 gr 429244 at 1600 fps is dead on at 100M +6 at 150 and +12 at 200. My main use for the gun is Cowboy Sil as well. This gun can out shoot me, so the 1:38 twist barrel is not a handicap, be better if it was 1:20 but it isn't and they have no plans to change it, and Believe me,,, we have came at them from a bunch of different angles every year at SHOT for the last 10 years!.

The reason is that the guns shoot Factory .44's OK and they are not building rifles for use with reloads. In fact no gun maker builds guns for use with Reloads! CYA for sure, but they have it in writing so they are covered. YMMV!.

The reason why Revolvers have 1:20 twist barrels is because of the lower velocity.

On a bright note you can buy a Ruger 77/44 Bolt action carbine that has a 1:20 twist barrel. Only problem with that gun is the loads you use are limited to @1.620 OAL max due to the length of the magazine. You can single load 340's or SWC's and it will shoot them.

My standard load with 429244 runs about 1.680 which shouldn't feed in the Marlin, but does just fine.

Once again put a chamfer on the chamber mouth and it will feed any type of boolit. Simple to do and makes a world of difference.

Marlin ain't gonna change what they are doing for us. If you want something different you'll have to make it.

Brian Pearce had a Marlin SS Take Down .44 Carbine made by David Clay with a 1:16 twist barrel. I have seen the gun and it is sweet. $5500! I have <$700 in my 1894 CB with the Lyman and XS Sights and sling installed. Works just fine, and will take down anything in N/A. His will shoot 340 gr boolits, mine probably won't, but what will know the difference when it gets hit? Nothing?

Randy

[W.R.Buchanan]

I also just got a Mihec 434-640 mould (Group buy that finally showed up) it is a Lyman Devastator Clone and is a round flat nosed design with multiple HP pins.

This mould is good for the Leverguns but I got it for the Ruger 77/44 I have been looking for as it will make the max OAL of 1.610 for that gun.

The easiest way to get you Marlin Levergun to feed any type of boolit is to simply put a .04-.05 chamfer on the chamber mouth so it doesn't dig into the boolit as it is being fed into the chamber. See pic above.

Randy

[Hickory]

Brian Pearce had a Marlin SS Take Down .44 Carbine made by David Clay with a 1:16 twist barrel. I have seen the gun and it is sweet. $5500!

It would be nice if some of these gun scribes would champion what the average hunter-shooter wants, instead of just selling only what gun manufactures have to offer when they write an article.

[cabezaverde]

How do you guys chamfer a chamber mouth?

[alamogunr]

How do you guys chamfer a chamber mouth?

+1 I'm not sure that I trust myself with a Dremel. Heck! I'm sure I don't.

[Outpost75]

How do you guys chamfer a chamber mouth?

In .357 lever-actions I use a 3/8" ball-end mill cutter on an extension handle, using light hand pressure only and Brownell's Do-Drill. This also works on 9mm revolver chambers to break the wire edge on the stop surface to avoid shaving lead using cast bullets. On the .30 Carbine Ruger single-action I use an 8mm ball end mill to accomplish the same thing.

These break the sharp corner of the ball seat entrance at the end of the case prior to origin of rifling.

I misunderstood your question, if you are talking about chamfering the chamber ENTRANCE at the extreme rear end of the chamber ahead of the rim seat, you will need a 12mm ball cutter.

[longbow]

I went through many gyrations of modifying the carrier to get SWC's to feed in my 1894... before Randy posted this gem of info. I wish I had seen it first! Mine now feeds SWC's but I plan to add the chamfer as well since it won't hurt and just may help.

In my case the loaded rounds were tipping so high the meplat was whacking the top edge of the chamber mouth so I don't think the chamfer alone would have fixed it but still a good idea. Every RNFP I tried fed fine but not the Lyman 429421 or the H&G #503.

I tried a countersink but it is a bit too large to fit. I'll have to try my RCBS chamfer tool, hadn't thought of that. Thanks!

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

LB and others, just use a 5/8 countersink on an extension. Turn it by hand as it doesn't take much because the barrels are relatively soft Material. Shouldn't take more than 5 minutes to do. Don't use a Drill motor and the Dremel needs to stay in it's box!

Where I ran into this was trying to shoot wide Flat Nosed boolits and every time I tried to feed one the top of the chamber would gouge into the edge of the boolit and stop it. I didn't mod the lifter in any way and my gun feeds WFN and SWC rounds as long as 1.690 easily and as fast as you can run the lever.

Randy

[longbow]

Tried my countersink but it's too big. I'll find a smaller one.

[JFE]

While there's no real reason for the slow twist, that's not really a problem. I ran a number of different tests in my B-92 until I cracked the code. Fed the right diameter pills, a 1 in 38" twist will stabilise a 300gr cast bullet. As mentioned previously it's the larger groove diameter of SAAMI rifle specs and the long throat. The throat is approx 0.22" in length and there's no way a round that will feed through the action can have a bullet seated out far enough to reach the rifling. Nothing short of a custom revolver spec barrel and custom throat is going to change that.

Most factory moulds are designed for revolver use. The bullet shapes, bullet diameter and crimp groove placement generally cater for revolver users, not rifle users. TC or RNFP designs work best in rifles.

I tend to use as large a diameter pill that will still cycle and chamber in the rifle. Since we can't seat the bullet forward to reach the rifling, at least a tight fit in the chamber centralizes the bullet in the bore. If you don't do that the cartridge slumps to the bottom of the chamber causing alignment issues.

[ironhead7544]

I use a cast RNFP .433 200 gr bullet and enough Unique for 1330 fps in my 24" 1894 Cowboy 44 Magnum. Very accurate. Smaller diameter bullets did not work well.

I read somewhere that Winchester used the 1 in 38 to get better accuracy at long range in the early 44 rifles.

[Warhawk]

My Browning B92 has aggravated me to no end. The bore is oversize, and it has the ridiculous 1:38 twist. I also have a B92 in 357 that will shoot rings around the 44.

I've had half a dozen Marlins in 44 Magnum, not satisfied with any of them. I currently have a 2006 JM Marlin with Ballard rifling, I hope it will do better. I've also had .357 Marlins (3) and all shot great with no dramatics required.

Note that the same gun in 45 Colt has a 1:20 twist barrel. Henry made a typo on their website for 2018 and said the 44 had a 1:20 twist barrel. I was ready to order one, until I called and they said it was a typo and they were still 1:38.

My most accurate 44 levergun is also the cheapest, a Rossi 92 Trapper. I like it so well I bought a 357 just like it ,and treated both of them to an action job by Steve Young. The Rossi 44 has accounted for a few Texas hogs.

Yesterday my Midway order arrived, I decided to mess with the B92 again and ordered some Speer 210 grain bonded JHPs. If this doesn't work I'm going to look into rebarreling it.

[jstanfield103]

This must be why the New Winchesters 1892 in 44 Mag. are a 1:26 twist ?

[longbow]

I may be behind the times here and while not .44 mag. I see that Marlin has "re-introduced" the 444 and it has 1:20" twist! Maybe there is hope yet that they are listening... a bit anyway.

Of course the 444 should have had a faster twist for sure and then it would truly have been a "modern" .45-70. It runs at higher (than factory loading) .45-70 pressure but was limited by the slow twist and lack of bullet selection. a 444 with 350 to 400 gr. boolits should be pretty much the same on the receiving end as a .45-70 loaded to equal pressure and would offer better performance than typical factory .45-70 ammunition for non-reloaders.

While the 1894 in .44 mag. may not be truly handicapped by the 1:38" twist it certainly wouldn't hurt to increase the twist rate for those that want to shoot heavier boolits. Heavy for caliber cast boolits work well and no good reason I can see for not allowing their use in the rifle whether "necessary" or not. A 1:20' or 1:25" twist wouldn't hurt the 1894 in any way but would allow better long range performance with the heavy boolits available.

After reading about the "new" 444 maybe there is hope yet for the 1894!

Longbow