44 Magnum lever guns: 1:38 Twist - WHY?

[Warhawk]

I may be behind the times here and while not .44 mag. I see that Marlin has "re-introduced" the 444 and it has 1:20" twist! Maybe there is hope yet that they are listening... a bit anyway.

Of course the 444 should have had a faster twist for sure and then it would truly have been a "modern" .45-70. It runs at higher (than factory loading) .45-70 pressure but was limited by the slow twist and lack of bullet selection. a 444 with 350 to 400 gr. boolits should be pretty much the same on the receiving end as a .45-70 loaded to equal pressure and would offer better performance than typical factory .45-70 ammunition for non-reloaders.

While the 1894 in .44 mag. may not be truly handicapped by the 1:38" twist it certainly wouldn't hurt to increase the twist rate for those that want to shoot heavier boolits. Heavy for caliber cast boolits work well and no good reason I can see for not allowing their use in the rifle whether "necessary" or not. A 1:20' or 1:25" twist wouldn't hurt the 1894 in any way but would allow better long range performance with the heavy boolits available.

After reading about the "new" 444 maybe there is hope yet for the 1894!

Longbow

The guide gun version of the 444 was the 444P, and had 1:20 twist barrels. Glad to hear Remington is bringing back the 444.

[JFE]

My Browning B92 has aggravated me to no end. The bore is oversize, and it has the ridiculous 1:38 twist. I also have a B92 in 357 that will shoot rings around the 44.

I've had half a dozen Marlins in 44 Magnum, not satisfied with any of them. I currently have a 2006 JM Marlin with Ballard rifling, I hope it will do better. I've also had .357 Marlins (3) and all shot great with no dramatics required.

Note that the same gun in 45 Colt has a 1:20 twist barrel. Henry made a typo on their website for 2018 and said the 44 had a 1:20 twist barrel. I was ready to order one, until I called and they said it was a typo and they were still 1:38.

My most accurate 44 levergun is also the cheapest, a Rossi 92 Trapper. I like it so well I bought a 357 just like it ,and treated both of them to an action job by Steve Young. The Rossi 44 has accounted for a few Texas hogs.

Yesterday my Midway order arrived, I decided to mess with the B92 again and ordered some Speer 210 grain bonded JHPs. If this doesn't work I'm going to look into rebarreling it.

If you don't have the right size moulds, try to buy some GC RNFP pills that are 0.433-0.434 in diameter. I think you will be happy with the groups. As I mentioned in my earlier post, I've been able to get decent groups using 300gr cast bullets out of my Browning. It was only when I tried pills that were around 345gr that I saw signs of yaw on the target, so the 1 in 38" twist will work with any sensible weight in a 44 mag.

[longbow]

I didn't realize their 444 guide gun had faster twist. That should stabilize a 400+ gr. boolit. That should make it more or less equivalent to a .45-70 or certainly as good or better than .45-70 factory loads.

I always liked the 444 but went with .45-70 because brass was cheaper and easier to find. Not many 444's here but lots of .45-70's. That and the slow twist put me off.

As for my 1:38" twist 1894, I've been told they will stabilize the right type of 300 gr. boolit ~ WFn style, and Ranch Dog says his 300 grain design is stable. So, yes, I guess it can be done but a faster twist wouldn't hurt anything either.

And +1 on JFE's comment on boolit diameter. The SAAMI rifle spec has larger groove diameter than handgun spec. Rifle is 0.431" so fat boolits are required to seal and produce decent accuracy. Same should apply to .444.

Longbow

[ReloaderFred]

There's a small difference in the SAAMI bore diameter specs for the .44 Magnum and .444 Marlin in rifles. The .44 Magnum is .431" and the .444 Marlin is .430".

https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads...FR.pdf#page=13

Hope this helps.

Fred

[longbow]

It makes one wonder doesn't it!?!

Why three different groove diameters to shoot the same bullets? Not sure what SAAMI was thinking there. The slow twist in the .44 mag. and 444 rifles is bad enough but having the fat groove diameter and yet still different is a real mystery. According to Randy the extra windage in the .44 mag. is to vent off pressure and that may be true but it makes no sense to me at all because the gun should be designed for the cartridge pressure plus that really only applies to factory loaded rounds. With cast boolits what do we do" We size to suit the groove diameter we have so no venting of pressure. I haven't heard of .44 mag. rifles coming apart frequently due to use of cast boolits not allowing excess pressure to vent around them.

Hmmmm... now I have to question Randy's logic too looking at the SAAMI spec again. For .44 mag. rifle they call up a 0.432" bullet. No extra windage for venting there! That only works with an undersize bullet. Also, I note that in the SAAMI spec for .44 mag. handgun that they spec a 0.432" lead bullet!

In the case of the 444 it is a different cartridge entirely but it was designed to shoot the same bullets so... should be the same groove diameter.

Again, the 1:38" twist seems like an odd choice since a faster twist is used in about every other gun except the .44-40 and the .44-40 wasn't designed for very heavy bullets.

Oh well!

[gunther]

A question: Where are the best places to find the .433 molds, and .433 lyman design sizer dies to properly feed a .44 Marlin ?

[Nobade]

A question: Where are the best places to find the .433 molds, and .433 lyman design sizer dies to properly feed a .44 Marlin ?

Accurate molds of course. You can have whatever diameter you want. NOE has some good ones also.

[winelover]

Track of the Wolf, carries oversize H & I style sizer dies. I know they had .432, not sure about .433 diameter. I purchased mine from CB member Buckshot. However, he's no longer making them.

Winelover

[gunther]

winelover: Track of the Wolf doesn't list custom sizers, but Buffalo Arms does. The .432 and.432 are currently out of stock.

[gunther]

MY mistake. Track of the Wolf has lyman-type sizer dies from .432 to .437, inclusive. The .433 is the only one currently out of stock They also have Saeco design sizer dies in .432, .433, and .434.

[gunther]

winelover: Track of the Wolf doesn't list custom sizers, but Buffalo Arms does. The .433 is currently out of stock.

[Outpost75]

I have had DougGuy hone sizer bullet sizer dies for me to match the cylinder he was doing at the same time.

[longbow]

My recent .44 moulds are Accurate, and Mihec but Mihec is group buys only. Accurate will make what you want when you want and as Nobade said, NOE has some good moulds as well and they are stock for the most part.

[Savvy Jack]

Attachment 233906

[Warhawk]

Attachment 233906

Who did that for you?

[Savvy Jack]

Who did that for you?

That is a 1 1/4" Dia, 20" MGM 44-40 barrel with a 1-20" Twist https://matchgrademachine.com/
7 Shot, 3" Groups 240gr SWC's @ 100 yards

1 shot way high, adjusted scope. 2 Shots top of target, readjusted again. First time I used the scope on this thing at 100 yards.
Attachment 233907
17,610 psi load
NOT FOR 73's AND REVOLVERS

Attachment 233908

I wonder if guys would slow down those 44 Mag rifle loads if they would group better with the 1-38" twist.

[Savvy Jack]

My 44-40 Marlin 1894CB with I assume a 1-38" twist.
I told Outpost75 what the twist was at one time but I forgot...memory of a gold fish!

As good as I can get with a 1-38" twist

20 shots, 4" Groups @ 100 Yards, 210gr JSC
Attachment 233909

15 Shots, 4" Groups @ 100 Yards, 240gr SWC
Attachment 233910

30 shots, 18" x 18". Would be 40 but I made a sight adjustment after the first ten (low). Technically 40 shots inside 18" x 18" @ 265 Yards Replicating the Winchester 1866 300 paces shots during the Switzerland Test Trials in 1866.
Attachment 233911


Attachment 233913

...and Doc Pardee's 30 shot, 4" group @ 110 yards in 1873...with the black powder loads
Attachment 233914

[W.R.Buchanan]

Hmmmm... now I have to question Randy's logic too looking at the SAAMI spec again. For .44 mag. rifle they call up a 0.432" bullet. No extra windage for venting there! That only works with an undersize bullet. Also, I note that in the SAAMI spec for .44 mag. handgun that they spec a 0.432" lead bullet!
Oh well!

LB: The larger bore isn't there to "Vent" Pressure. It is there to lower pressure by causing less friction/resistance in the barrel with "factory ammo."

The fact we load larger boolits is not an issue for Marlin. They are only concerned how factory ammo works in their guns. We are (generally speaking) somewhat more knowledgeable than the average fool who shoots guns, and we probably represent 10% of their sales so they probably don't care much about our wishes even though they would improve the product . But making a change of this magnitude in a shop the size of Remington's literally takes an act of God. And God hasn't seen fit to grant us this relatively small favor.

Like I said,,, the Ruger 77/44 has a 1:20 twist barrel so there is a place to go and those little guns really cool ! I want one so I can put a TRS 25 on it and have a real neat little Bolt Action Carbine for ,,, You guessed it,,, Wild Boar Fever!

The whole secret to getting these guns to shoot is simply running the boolits fast enough to stabilize. My 260 gr 429244 GC's with 22 gr of H110 are way above where that bullet needs to fly true. I could just as easily run 24.0 gr of H110 and probably pick up another 100 fps, but why? There's nothing to be gained.

Someone mentioned shallow grooves? They are .004 deep on a side and virtually every modern gun known to man has grooves that are .003-.005 deep. nothing wrong here.

Randy

[longbow]

Sorry Randy I misread or misinterpreted your comment about reducing pressure due to large groove diameter. Still, I think that is a silly idea. The gun should be built for the service.

Even if pressure/strength/friction aren't issues the fact that the handguns and rifles have different groove dimensions is just plain wrong. They shoot the same ammunition so why would Marlin do that? Or was it SAAMI?

Makes no sense to me anyway.

This is not the same situation as .45 cal. handguns and rifles having different bore dimensions. Those developed differently and wound up being different by a few thou. With .44 mag. the ammunition is the same and the rifle barrels should have been made to same dimensions as the handgun barrels. The twist... well that's a different story and while I'd like the ability to shoot heavier boolits should I so choose, my microgroove 1:38" twist barrel does quite well with properly sized cast boolits up to about 270 grs. Mind you I have not shot those out to 200 yards yet. My old 265 gr.s RNFP's from my home made mould did okay out to 200 yards though which is good enough for me.

You are right in that I really do not need to shoot heavier boolits and that likely applies to most others. However, again, since the handguns will stabilize the heavies, there is no good reason the rifles shouldn't. In fact, it should really be the other way around ~ the rifles should handle the heavy stuff that may not fit or stabilize in the handgun... in my opinion anyway but we know what that's worth.

All in all I like my Marlin and it does what it is supposed to do. It wasn't many years ago that this wouldn't even have been a discussion then along came Garrett and others with BIG boolits!

Actually I have no interest in the Ruger 77/44. Not sure why but they never did anything for me. Nothing against Ruger but that gun doesn't turn my crank. A #1 or preferably a #3 in .44 mag. I would like. Again, don't ask why but I like the Ruger #3 and in .44 mag. I think it would be a nice gun. Go figure!

Longbow

[curioushooter]

To answer the op...because Marlin probably assumed the only folks interested would be CAS using specials with short bullets.