44 Magnum lever guns: 1:38 Twist - WHY?

[nitro-express]

I've owned several 44 Mag lever guns with 1:38 twist, and they never met my expectations. I've researched this a bit, and IMO the poor performance (with cast bullets and cowboy loads) is in large part due to the rather lazy 1:38 twist. This seems to be an affliction mostly to those rifles that follow SAAMI specs. IMO, the SAAMI spec for 44 Mag Rifle was written by Marlin, calling for 12 narrow and shallow grooves. The "Ballard" version uses 6 slightly wider but equally shallow grooves.

I had a beautiful anniversary B92 Browning, it was a shallow slow twist rifle, and I traded it off. My next nemesis is a marlin 1894, 6 shallow grooves, and not a tight bore/groove either.

For S&G I ran some of my 44 bullets in an online twist calculator, No Sir, 1:38 twist sure doesn't seem to be the way to go.

I've owned two Brazilian 44's, one a 44 mag and the other a 44-40. The twist on each was app 1:20, at least visually wasn't close to 1:38. The guns had issues, after all they entry level firearms, but bullet stabilization and accuracy was not an issue. I checked the specs on the Italian rifles, no 1:38, or anything approaching that. Not for 44 Mag, 44-40 or 45 Colt.

So I checked the CIP specs, no sir, no slow twist there.

I was so frustrated with shooting cowboy loads in my Marlin, I tried some of my 429360 bullets, and they were the best loads of the week. Really, they wouldn't do squat in my Ruger Vaqueros, really messed with my head.

As soon as I sell my Marlin, I'll be buying an 1873 in 357/38, AFAIK, SAAMI hasn't messed up that caliber yet.

I'd like to know if anyone with a 44/1:38 thinks this is a good thing, because I'm not seeing it.




PS: I must have looked like a lunatic at the range, testing hundreds of combos, in my 1894 Marlin with a Bushnell Elite 3200 10x40mm Tactical scope mounted on it.

My best combo was with a swagged Speer 240 gr SWC and Trail Boss. 2" at 50 yards, and 2" at 100 yards. I suspect that the parallax on the 3200 10x is not that good at 50. It was rather comical, cranking in a wack of elevation to go from 50 to 100.

BTW, I find the 3200 10X pretty handy for testing loads in hunting rifles, a pretty rock solid scope, easy to work with, and when you crank in 3 moa, it moves 3 moa. It also fits on most rifles without too many issues.

[cabezaverde]

I HAD a Winchester 94 in 44 magnum. Note I said had. Frustrating gun to load for.

[ReloaderFred]

The SAAMI spec. bore diameter for the .44 Magnum rifle is .431", which is the root of a lot of problems with .44 Magnum rifles. They will shoot jacketed bullets OK, but you have to run larger cast bullets to fit the bore, especially with lighter loads that won't obturate to fill the bore. I size mine .430", and they work OK, but if I had a .431" sizing die for my Stars, I'd use that....

Hope this helps.

Fred

[osteodoc08]

Yet another reason to love the 41 Maggie.......the twist has always been right from the factory in the barrels.

[john.k]

I suspect the 1 in 38 twist was chosen by Benjamin Henry in 1860 for the new 44 rimfire.For a 200 grain bullet powered by blackpowder the shallow groove and slow twist was needed to control fouling......As often happens,when the changeover to CF 44-40 happened,the barrel dimensions were left the same..........if it works ,why change........so blaming SAAMI for the 1 in 38 is a bit far fetched....As to exactly why the 44 mag should use a larger bore than the long established 44s,that I cannot answer.....Maybe Elmer Keith is to blame.

[Don McDowell]

I suspect if you ran some .430 or .431 diameter 240 gr bullets with loads that make at least 1000 fps thru your Marlin you would see a good bit of improvement in groups.

[bikerbeans]

Velocity is your friend with a 1:38 twist 44 mag launching heavier and or longer boolits. As mentioned, you need the proper boolit diameter for the groove diameter of your barrel.

BB

[Outpost75]

My 1:38" twist .44-40 shoots just fine. So does my .44 Magnum.

Attachment 231679 Attachment 231681Attachment 231682Attachment 231683

We got no mastadons here, so I don't need heavier than a 240-grain boolit.

[sghart3578]

You're complaining about 2" groups at 100 yards with a pistol caliber lever action?

The doomsayers are right, this country is beyond hope. (Sarcasm)


Steve in N CA

[Walks]

I have one of the Winchester 94's made in 1988, a couple- three years before they brought them out as Trappers.
I've shot the HORNADY 265gr made for the .444Marlin.
Great accuracy at 100yds , under 2" with a old 2X Redfield. The SAECO # 432 cast hard and GC'ed shot just as well.

My Old pre-safety MARLIN shot almost as well.

On the other hand my Chiropractor's Winchester 94 Trapper, made in the early 2000's shoot into 3-4" at 50yds. But It's good enough for Cowboy Shooting.

But my 3 UBERTI. 44WCF's and one ROSSI .44WCF all shoot 200 -225gr .428dia into 2" at 50yrds.
Which is all you need for Cowboy Shooting and popping cans.

I guess I'm luckier then most. If I'm going to Hunt with a Rifle, I'll use a Rifle caliber.
If I still could.

[Char-Gar]

The standard twist for the 44-40 was 1-38 and the makers just continued with that when they went to 44 Mag chambering. I have a Marlin 94 that shoots cast very well, but I load it about like a 44-40. I used a 225 grain bullet over 10/Unique. That is a very effective round out of a rifle, which will kill grave yard dead anything that walks, flies or slithers in Texas. Big things in zoos not withstanding.

Problems arise when folks don't understand their rifles and think that a 44 Mag rifle should shoot heavy loads designed for their sixguns. The calibers on the barrels may be the same, but they are different critters.

[HangFireW8]

I think the OP blamed Marlin more than SAAMI, which would be correct. Manufacturers drive SAAMI standards, not the other way around. It took Marlin decades to correct the 444 twist to allow for easier stabilization of 280-300gr. Another decade or so to give us a magazine follower that would feed them.

I think 1:38 could be improved upon, but that would take retooling costs, and Remlin... well they sell enough 94's as is, so I would not hold my breath.

[Char-Gar]

I think the OP blamed Marlin more than SAAMI, which would be correct. Manufacturers drive SAAMI standards, not the other way around. It took Marlin decades to correct the 444 twist to allow for easier stabilization of 280-300gr. Another decade or so to give us a magazine follower that would feed them.

I think 1:38 could be improved upon, but that would take retooling costs, and Remlin... well they sell enough 94's as is, so I would not hold my breath.

I don't think that either Marlin or SAAMI have any blame. Most likely it is the shooters expectations that cause the difficulty. If enough shooters stoped buying those rifles, it would not be long until the makers started making them to suit the buyers expectations.

Me, I am happy as a clam at high tide with my Marlin 94. I feed it what it wants, and it gives me what I want, i.e. good thump, great accuracy and mild recoil. That is a winning combination in my book.

[sghart3578]

I don't think that either Marlin or SAAMI have any blame. Most likely it is the shooters expectations that cause the difficulty. If enough shooters stoped buying those rifles, it would not be long until the makers started making them to suit the buyers expectations.

Me, I am happy as a clam at high tide with my Marlin 94. I feed it what it wants, and it gives me what I want, i.e. good thump, great accuracy and mild recoil. That is a winning combination in my book.

Very well said.

I have several 1894's in 357 and 44 mag. Most are JM but one Remlin.

All perform beautifully with the load that I tailor to it specifically. And they all perform well with several loads, not just the one.

Marlin 1894's are my favorite rifle and there is always one, usually two in my truck for range days, even if I am just shooting my flintlocks.


Steve in N CA

[trapper9260]

I suspect if you ran some .430 or .431 diameter 240 gr bullets with loads that make at least 1000 fps thru your Marlin you would see a good bit of improvement in groups.

I have done just this for my Marlin like the OP stated he have and with the 240grs boolit the groups did got better and also did it with the 310grs from Lee and shot with the .430 and did not like the group and then got .431 die and it tight up the group and now when I load for the rifle that is what the size I use and for my RH I go with the .430. You can see about that the groups dose close in.I had got my Marlin used.It shot great just as it is with the open sights that it came with from the factory.

[longbow]

As noted, the 1:38" twist seems to be a historical twist from the .44-40's or even prior. Why the "fat" bores? Well, I have never seen any reasonable explanation as to why a rifle chambered for a handgun cartridge with SAAMI spec of 0.429" groove diameter should be saddled with a 0.431" groove diameter. Makes no sense to me at all but that's the way it is.

Fed "fat" boolits (0.432"+) my 1894 performs satisfactorily with boolits up to about 270 gr. Ranch Dog says his 300 gr. design stabilizes in 1:38" twist, out to 300 yards IIRC, and I have been told that 300 gr. WFN's also stabilize in 1:38" twist at max. velocities but those are heavies I didn't get around to trying. I decided I'd stick with 270 gr. and under which seem to work fine. I didn't want to be running max. loads all the time just to get a heavy boolit to stabilize.

My moulds:

- Mihec H&G #504 @ 0.434" (258 gr.)
- Mihec 434640 @ 0.434" (270 gr.)
- Accurate #43-165B @ 0.433" (165 gr.)
- Ranch Dog/Lee 265 gr. @ 0.432" (IIRC) (265 gr.)

All fat!

Why not use a faster twist? I can't think of a good reason and I am surprised that Marlin and others didn't do that some time ago. 1:20" or slightly slower should work just fine for light to very heavy boolits in both .44 mag. and 444 Marlin.

I understand the complaint but there are reasonable solutions that work well enough... then of course there is re-barreling but that is a bit extreme.

Longbow

[Outpost75]

The expectation of getting 2" groups with a lever action of handgun caliber at 100 yards simply is NOT realistic. Two inches at 50 yards is. And that is about what factory loads will do when fired from the industrial test barrel and Universal Receiver.

The 1:38" twist is fully adequate with bullets up to about 270 grains, such as Saeco #432.
The fellows who think they must shoot 300-grain bullets in their .44 magnums have other problems...

Hard bullets are an issue for some people which causes trouble. Bullets which are too hard and undersized are a perfect storm to lead your barrel. That is another old wives tale which needs to be killed with a wooden stake through its heart. Most leading is caused by bullets which are too hard, but NOT by being too soft.

I use 1 to 30 tin-lead from Roto Metals for my .44-40 and .44 Magnum loads up to 1080 fps in handguns and to 1450 in rifles. Size bullets .430 in both calibers for my Marlins, Rossi and Rugers. No GCs needed and no leading.

Microgroove rifling is not a problem with correct loads, bullets which fit and which have adequate lube capacity, if you are using black powder. YES I shoot Holy Black in my Microgroove Marlins and with Confederate Army Lube or SPG there are no issues. I get 3" five-shot groups and about 4" for ten shots with iron sights at 100 yards, and kill my share of game.

Fix the headspace between the ears and tighten the nut behind the buttplate.

[alamogunr]

Just bookmarked this thread. I have a Browning B92 w/1:38" barrel that I got in a real good deal about 15 yrs ago. It came with about 250 rounds of handloaded ammo. I shot one round in a Ruger Bisley and it seemed to be fairly mild, so I shot about 5 or 6 rounds thru the B92. Couldn't hit anything.

Took the rifle home and checked the barrel. I've posted about this before. I could hardly see the lands in the barrel for the leading. No wonder the previous owner sold it cheap. After a few hours of cleaning, starting with Chore Boy scrubbers, I had a clean barrel. Haven't done anything with it since. Pulled the boolits from the ammo and found them to be undersized.

After reading this thread, I've put this rifle on the project list. Hope I live long enough to get to it. I love lever actions.

[rking22]

I have a 78 Browning 92 as well. Shot it a lot in the late 70s, not much this century. Like John, this has me planning to dig it out again, thanks for the inspiration!

[longbow]

Some of us want to shoot heavy boolits whether we have to or not. I used to wonder if the heavier boolit reduced case capacity to the point that there would be less velocity and penetration but from my testing... no! The 300 gr. boolits out penetrated same design lighter boolits every time. That was why I wanted the heavies but in reality 270 gr. should do anything I want and these days I like my little 165 gr. Accurate plinker. That's like shooting a .22 on steroids... little recoil, not a lot of noise but BIG holes. I like BIG holes!

+1 on liking microgroove rifling too. I never had a problem with it in either the 1894 or 1895. I like the microgroove rifling. I also shot BP a lot in my 1895 and no trouble at all with microgroove rifling. I have loaded a few .44 mags with BP but not many, just wanted to try a "modern" .44-40. Again, no issues in the 1894 either.

I like the Marlins and given what they like they shoot well enough for most needs... or at least mine.

Longbow