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Thread: Tight chamber casuing issues

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy am44mag's Avatar
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    Tight chamber casuing issues

    I have a Romanian Tokarev that has a tight chamber. I have tried a few fixes and they seemed to help, but I'm still having issues. Rounds will periodically (at least 2-3 per magazine unless hell froze over that day) enter the chamber but will not fully seat. They stop just a bit short. Maybe 1/8" at most. They also get jammed in there pretty good. They dang sure won't go forward, and you gotta muscle it a bit to get them to eject. The bore is .314" IIRC, I do not have a chamber cast unfortunately (need to buy some chamber casting metal). The bullets I'm using are the 90gr .309" XTPs. I have thought of using .308" FMJ bullets, but doubt that would solve this problem. (BTW, despite the much larger bore, the .309"s actually shoot pretty well).

    Here's what I've tried.

    I aggressively cleaned the chamber and even polished it lightly with Brasso.
    I use a LEE factory crimp die (made the gun actually usable, but still FTF prone).
    I have look at what brass is causing issues, and while one brand seemed to cause more issues than the other, it wasn't only that brand causing issues. I feel like thicker brass may be playing a role in this.

    I have heard of a few ways to fix this issue, but I'm wondering which one would be best. I have heard of using J-B bore cleaning compound on a resized case attached to a drill to enlarge the chamber, and I have heard that re-cutting the chamber with a reamer would probably fix it. I can get the gauges and the reamer for about $40. I doubt it would take much. Ul;ultimately, I'd like to shoot cast out of this gun, but that doesn't seem likely to happen with the large bore and the tight chamber.

    Suggestions. (BTW, the closest gunsmith I would trust is 2-3 hours away and would likely require be drop the gun off and come back a few days later. I'm basically on my own, but I am good enough with tools that I can probably do the reaming on my own without a problem.)
    Last edited by am44mag; 12-05-2018 at 10:38 PM.
    ______________________________________________
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  2. #2
    Boolit Grand Master
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    I am mystified as to how abrasive on a resized case can be expected to enlarge the “bore.” It will have no effect on it whatsoever when spun with a drill in the chamber.

    I think a lot of confused terminology is being used in a hurried fashion here.

    I would suggest one thing at a time.

    Take an empty but sized case. Does it chamber fully in the barrel removed from the gun? If so the problem lies somewhere other than the sizing fit of the case in the chamber. Perhaps the leade is too short or the bullet seated too long or some combination of the two.

    Your bore diameter is not .314.” Your groove diameter is .314.” Bore diameter is the land to land distance and is the smallest interior dimension of a rifled barrel, not the largest.

    Run down whether a sized case fits. If it does you have an insufficient throat length or diameter problem or bullets are seated with too much bearing length too far forward.

    Ensure the loaded case does not exceed spec when measured over the seated bullet. If bullet case diameter in this area is excessive there will be drag marks over those areas on the rounds that do not want to chamber.
    Last edited by 35remington; 12-05-2018 at 07:58 PM.

  3. #3
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Is the bore chrome lined? If so it may be tight from a slightly heavy coating. If it is a chrome lined bore then chances are a reamer wont touch it. I would do the chamber cast and see what it measures. Do sized cases enter and chamber with out the bullet? Does factory ammo have the same problem or just the handloads, If just the handloads then you may have a problem with dies. If both then its probably the chamber Once the problem is found for sure then the fix can be taken. A case ( drill and tap the primer pocket to 10-32) with a stem impregnate with fine polishing compound and lightly lap the chamber if its a chrome lined barrel. Here a rouge is good a fine low concentration diamond compound, or actual fine lapping compound. Most cleaners are soft and will cut slowly

  4. #4
    Boolit Master slughammer's Avatar
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    Like 35 Remington says, take the barrel out of the pistol.

    See if your resized brass fits flush. Check ALL of it! Every piece.

    Seat a bullet backwards flush to the case mouth if you can, or seat it deeply enough that the shoulder doesn't matter. See if some of those fit.

    Lower your charge and seat them deeper if you need to.

    Load a box of 50 and then plunk test them all into the barrel.

    If you want to measure the chamber diameter near the throat, you can do so by driving some soft lead into there.
    Happiness is a couple of 38's and a bucket of ammo.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master GhostHawk's Avatar
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    For me it was a Cz-52 and it took finding the right bullet mold to truly solve the problem.

    I tried several options but the Lee .314 90 gr Truncated Cone TL solved it.

    Played with seating depth until they would all plunk cleanly of their own weight all the way.

    IMO the only way you really know is to pull the barrel and experiment.

    Once you have bullets that will truly PLUNK, ie shoulder of the bullet not contacting the rifling. Set your dies, make copious notes and your good to go.

    For me, once I actually got mine shooting the way it should the challenge was mastered.
    I found a good deal on 5 boxes of PPU 7.62x25 hollow points and moved on to other challenges.

    But, I can cast them, load them and have it work if I need to.

  6. #6
    Boolit Grand Master

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    I have a 9mm finishing reamer if you want to PM me. Sounds like it could be on the tight side, -or- a combination of tight chamber and not enough throat. Take the barrel out, rounds should drop in and spin freely. If you are within specs on loaded ammo that won't chamber, something's wrong with the barrel.

    A $40 reamer is just that. Nothing I would use on anybody's barrel, the solid pilots are made thousandths smaller so they will fit in any barrel, when what you need is the piloted reamer and pilots in half thou increments so you can fit the tightest pilot into the bore, this insures your chamber will be concentric with the bore when it is reamed. Now you are in excess of my rates.

    I would also ask for a couple of dummies that won't chamber because sometimes the problem can be with the rounds themselves and I check these closely.

    I have a 9mm auto finishing reamer and also a 9mm cylinder finishing reamer which is what you would need if the pistol is 9x25.
    Got a .22 .30 .32 .357 .38 .40 .41 .44 .45 .480 or .500 S&W cylinder that needs throat reaming? 9mm, 10mm/40S&W, 45 ACP pistol barrel that won't "plunk" your handloads? Shoot me a PM! Also on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Cylinderhone-756429174391912/

  7. #7
    Boolit Buddy am44mag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 35remington View Post
    I am mystified as to how abrasive on a resized case can be expected to enlarge the “bore.” It will have no effect on it whatsoever when spun with a drill in the chamber.

    I think a lot of confused terminology is being used in a hurried fashion here.

    I would suggest one thing at a time.

    Take an empty but sized case. Does it chamber fully in the barrel removed from the gun? If so the problem lies somewhere other than the sizing fit of the case in the chamber. Perhaps the leade is too short or the bullet seated too long or some combination of the two.

    Your bore diameter is not .314.” Your groove diameter is .314.” Bore diameter is the land to land distance and is the smallest interior dimension of a rifled barrel, not the largest.

    Run down whether a sized case fits. If it does you have an insufficient throat length or diameter problem or bullets are seated with too much bearing length too far forward.

    Ensure the loaded case does not exceed spec when measured over the seated bullet. If bullet case diameter in this area is excessive there will be drag marks over those areas on the rounds that do not want to chamber.
    I meant chamber, not bore. It's been one of those days where I can't seem to get my head on right. The JB bore compound with a resized case is apparently supposed to enlarge a chamber. It might work, it might now. I don't know exactly how much material needs to be removed. I have tried chambering a handful of empty cases. They went in fine. I have also played with the seating depth of the bullet. It did not seem to have an effect, though I didn't seat it an extreme amount.

    Quote Originally Posted by country gent View Post
    Is the bore chrome lined? If so it may be tight from a slightly heavy coating. If it is a chrome lined bore then chances are a reamer wont touch it. I would do the chamber cast and see what it measures. Do sized cases enter and chamber with out the bullet? Does factory ammo have the same problem or just the handloads, If just the handloads then you may have a problem with dies. If both then its probably the chamber Once the problem is found for sure then the fix can be taken. A case ( drill and tap the primer pocket to 10-32) with a stem impregnate with fine polishing compound and lightly lap the chamber if its a chrome lined barrel. Here a rouge is good a fine low concentration diamond compound, or actual fine lapping compound. Most cleaners are soft and will cut slowly
    I don't recall the barrel being chrome lined. Did Combloc nations even do that? I have not tried factory ammo. I'd assume it would work with surplus ammo, but there's a good probability that it was refurbished before being retired from service.

    Quote Originally Posted by slughammer View Post
    Like 35 Remington says, take the barrel out of the pistol.

    See if your resized brass fits flush. Check ALL of it! Every piece.

    Seat a bullet backwards flush to the case mouth if you can, or seat it deeply enough that the shoulder doesn't matter. See if some of those fit.

    Lower your charge and seat them deeper if you need to.

    Load a box of 50 and then plunk test them all into the barrel.

    If you want to measure the chamber diameter near the throat, you can do so by driving some soft lead into there.
    I will see if I can't get a measurement on the throat. I'll also play around with seating depth some more and try the plunk test. It'll be about a week or so before I can mess around with the gun though.

    Quote Originally Posted by GhostHawk View Post
    For me it was a Cz-52 and it took finding the right bullet mold to truly solve the problem.

    I tried several options but the Lee .314 90 gr Truncated Cone TL solved it.

    Played with seating depth until they would all plunk cleanly of their own weight all the way.

    IMO the only way you really know is to pull the barrel and experiment.

    Once you have bullets that will truly PLUNK, ie shoulder of the bullet not contacting the rifling. Set your dies, make copious notes and your good to go.

    For me, once I actually got mine shooting the way it should the challenge was mastered.
    I found a good deal on 5 boxes of PPU 7.62x25 hollow points and moved on to other challenges.

    But, I can cast them, load them and have it work if I need to.
    I might have to try that TC. If I could get the gun to run it, I'd be a pretty happy camper.

    Quote Originally Posted by DougGuy View Post
    I have a 9mm finishing reamer if you want to PM me. Sounds like it could be on the tight side, -or- a combination of tight chamber and not enough throat. Take the barrel out, rounds should drop in and spin freely. If you are within specs on loaded ammo that won't chamber, something's wrong with the barrel.

    A $40 reamer is just that. Nothing I would use on anybody's barrel, the solid pilots are made thousandths smaller so they will fit in any barrel, when what you need is the piloted reamer and pilots in half thou increments so you can fit the tightest pilot into the bore, this insures your chamber will be concentric with the bore when it is reamed. Now you are in excess of my rates.

    I would also ask for a couple of dummies that won't chamber because sometimes the problem can be with the rounds themselves and I check these closely.

    I have a 9mm auto finishing reamer and also a 9mm cylinder finishing reamer which is what you would need if the pistol is 9x25.
    The gun is chambered in 7.62x25mm. The reamer and gauges are just rentals. I would never buy one that cheap, I've seen what they usually go for. I'd have to look into what they do about pilots. The place I was looking at has a pretty high reputation from what I've seen, so I'd assume they supplied them or at least offered them. Thanks for the offer. I appreciate that a LOT. This is why I love this forum. There's a lot of great people here just trying to help each other out.
    ______________________________________________
    Aaron

  8. #8
    Boolit Grand Master
    9.3X62AL's Avatar
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    My Type 54 ChiCom Tokarev pistol in 7.62 x 25 had this issue at first. The culprit was tight chamber necks + .311" bullets to fit throat and bore + neck wall thickness. I set aside 150 cases for this pistol and resized them minus the expander assembly. I next reamed them with the .308" caliber neck reamer on my Forster case trimmer. This removed enough metal to fit .311" bullets--the case neck--and have about .002" of clearance for bullet release. I left the chamber in OEM form. The pistol has run like a scared rabbit ever since.
    I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.

  9. #9
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    I have found that the chamber NECK diameters on the Romanian TTs run small, usually not to exceed .330", so that a cartridge loaded in Starline brass with bullets larger than .310" will not chamber. I have also seen barrels which had no transition from the chamber neck to rifling, but only an abrupt start to the rifling. But barrel groove diameters also tend towards the larger diameters .312+, which is not a happy combination with cast bullets. A .30 M1 Carbine reamer run in and stopped short, or a .335" neck and throater reamer fixes it!

    The original barrel in my 1953 Polish pistol has a .335" neck diameter, and .3104" diameter ball seat with gradual origin of rifling similar to a 7.62x39 barrel of the same era and shoots either lead or jacketed wonderfully.
    Last edited by Outpost75; 12-06-2018 at 11:42 AM.
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  10. #10
    Boolit Master scattershot's Avatar
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    First thing I’d try is a box of factory ammo. If that functions properly, it’s not the gun.
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  11. #11
    Boolit Grand Master

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    If the factory ammo functions and feeds measure a few rounds loaded neck dia ( loaded rounds not the fired cases) and compare to your handloads loaded neck dia. if the handloads are much bigger then the issue may be there.

  12. #12
    Boolit Buddy gnostic's Avatar
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    You didn't say where the the tight spot was. Is the case burnished where it's touching the chamber, or is the bullet damaged on the round that got stuck? Just a guess, but it sounds like the bullets seated too long or has a nose issue, i.e. OAL length issue ....

  13. #13
    Boolit Buddy am44mag's Avatar
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    I believe the tight spot is either on the neck, or the shoulder (probably neck). I ordered some factory ammo with the same fmj bullets I was thinking about trying so we'll see how that goes. I'll probably pull a few and reload them just to see if it's something I'm doing.
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  14. #14
    Boolit Grand Master
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    FWIW--I bought some milsurp 7.62 x 25 ammo at the time I bought the ChiCon Takarev pistol, and that stuff ran fine. The cases had a stab crimp to hold the bullets in place, and the FMJ bullets mic'ed @ .307".

    Outpost's solution (reaming the case neck out a bit) would be a better solution than reaming the case necks, but I had the tools to adjust the necks; the chamber neck......not so much.
    I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.

  15. #15
    I must have an odd one ,my barrel is 308" I think you need to slug your barrel.

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