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Thread: .358 Winchester surprise result

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy
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    .358 Winchester surprise result

    I bought a Model 99 Savage Brush Gun .358 from a friend about 7 years ago, and put together some loads at the time with AA2460 powder, and the SAECO # 352 250 gr. GC, and the Lyman 358009 280 gr. GC. I decided to get it out and shoot it, but the weather has been wretched here, snow, sleet, and rain and back again and about 33 degrees. So I shot off my back deck at twenty-five yards. I can see into the woods to where the bullets will strike, with the leaves gone, so no hunters back there. My friend's 300 yard range is not usable in bad weather. The result with the SAECO 250 gr., 36.0 gr. 2460 - keyholing! a fiveshot group of 3". Looking in my records, I had a group of 4 shots in 2 1/2 " at 100 yds, with one shot lost (I thought a bad bullet) but it was in August, 80 degrees.
    So, cogitating about this, I fired a group with the 35809 280 gr., 34.0 gr. 2460 - five shots into 0.8 ". So not the weight too great for the twist. Wrapped the nose portion of the #352 with teflon tape as used for pipe threads to center the round in the throat - better, 5 in 2.3", 4 0f those in 1.3" but high & low shots show slight yawing.
    Bore ride problem? the 358009 measures .350, length measures .36 forward of the foremost band. the #352 also measures .350, but only for .12 forward of the foremost band to the turn of the ogive. The bullet is apparently not starting strait into the throat. I'm thinking it is not a mould problem, but perhaps if I crimp the bullet one groove back so as to it further forward into the throat to start with. That is what I will try next.
    "You will wantonly strike a hornet's nest which extends from mountains to ocean, and legions, now quiet, will swarm out and sting us to death. It is unnecessary; it puts us in the wrong; it is fatal." Robert Toombs, Democrat of Georgia, warning of the results of the imminent attack of the Confederacy upon Fort Sumter in Charleston Harbor, 1861

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
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    Failure to start straight will certainly cause problems, but I've loaded many thousands of rounds of rifle ammunition that only had the bullet 1/10" into the case neck. They have to be handled gently, but they shoot very well. These were tailor fitted to the chambers of particular rifles.

    You really want the fattest bullet that will chamber easily in your rifle. What diameter sizing die are you using? Try hand-lubing some bullets and load them without sizing. If they chamber easily, they may solve your problem. Then you know to buy a larger sizing die.

  3. #3
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    waksupi's Avatar
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    Sounds like an undersize bullet.
    The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
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  4. #4
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    gwpercle's Avatar
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    Whats wrong with 5 shots into 0.8 " .... I would be happy with That !
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  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwpercle View Post
    Whats wrong with 5 shots into 0.8 " .... I would be happy with That !
    The group was fired at 25 yards. Still, 3.2 MOA will certainly put venison in the freezer.

  6. #6
    Boolit Mold
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    Quote Originally Posted by waksupi View Post
    Sounds like an undersize bullet.
    What is the common sizing for 358 boolits?

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by mogwai View Post
    What is the common sizing for 358 boolits?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tatume View Post
    You really want the fattest bullet that will chamber easily in your rifle. What diameter sizing die are you using? Try hand-lubing some bullets and load them without sizing. If they chamber easily, they may solve your problem. Then you know to buy a larger sizing die.
    See above.

  8. #8
    Boolit Buddy
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    The 358009 is fine. The SAECO #352 250 gr. is the problem, I have a 1# coffee can full of them. When the weather moderates I have some ideas, but it was 12 degrees outside this morning, and my shop is outside, so it’s a PITA to cast, size & lube. Bullet size for the .358 Winchester is .358. Waiting for the January thaw.
    "You will wantonly strike a hornet's nest which extends from mountains to ocean, and legions, now quiet, will swarm out and sting us to death. It is unnecessary; it puts us in the wrong; it is fatal." Robert Toombs, Democrat of Georgia, warning of the results of the imminent attack of the Confederacy upon Fort Sumter in Charleston Harbor, 1861

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
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    You may find that your 0.358" cast bullets shoot well in warm weather but poorly when it is cold.

  10. #10
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    I size my 35 cal rifle bullets at .360. You have a lot of unsupported nose and 50% or less bearing surface on the #352 bullet as compared to the Lyman/Ideal 358009s long bore riding nose. That #352 bullet may just not shoot well above 1600 - 1700 fps. Also what lube are you using in those freezing temps? A very soft lube such as a 50/50 with some artic type snowmobile oil mixed in might work better.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  11. #11
    Boolit Buddy
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    Larry, the lube is one I have used forever in everything, a mix of 1/3 beeswax, 2/3 beef tallow. I don’t try for super velocities. One of the things I have in mind to try is indeed a lesser powder charge. I picked AA2460 because I had good results with it in the .375 Winchester, about all the powder I could cram in, and the .358 Winchester is similar in aspect with heavy lead bullets. It worked well with the long 358009. I can envision around 30 grains of 3031.
    "You will wantonly strike a hornet's nest which extends from mountains to ocean, and legions, now quiet, will swarm out and sting us to death. It is unnecessary; it puts us in the wrong; it is fatal." Robert Toombs, Democrat of Georgia, warning of the results of the imminent attack of the Confederacy upon Fort Sumter in Charleston Harbor, 1861

  12. #12
    Boolit Buddy
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    I looked back in my records to see if I had good results with SAECO #352 in any other guns, and sure enough, in .35 Remington I had good groups in 4 guns (I was picking up good hunting rifles as they appeared on the used gun shelves, many with honorable wear from use, at reasonable prices) as far back as 2003, up to 2014. Powder charges were around 33.0 3031, and 34.0 Scot 4065. Guns were Marlin 336A rifle, 336C carbine, Remington M141 pump, M81 autoloader. Good groups for these iron sighted rifles for me are around 3 inches for 5 shots or better, at 100 yards.
    "You will wantonly strike a hornet's nest which extends from mountains to ocean, and legions, now quiet, will swarm out and sting us to death. It is unnecessary; it puts us in the wrong; it is fatal." Robert Toombs, Democrat of Georgia, warning of the results of the imminent attack of the Confederacy upon Fort Sumter in Charleston Harbor, 1861

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check