Lee PrecisionMidSouth Shooters SupplyWidenersRepackbox
Reloading EverythingRotoMetals2Inline FabricationLoad Data
Titan Reloading
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 23

Thread: Expansion Dies verses Lee Universal Expanders

  1. #1
    Boolit Grand Master In Remembrance
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    South Jersey
    Posts
    6,314

    Expansion Dies verses Lee Universal Expanders

    Instead of using M-Dies or Expander Plugs, I found that using the Lee Universal Expander Dies with a single or progressive press, one can reload smokeless lead bullet reloads faster and when seating the bullets, the COAL's will be perfect ...
    * FL size the brass which gives the ID of the case the needed diameter tension so the lead bullet will not slide into the case when seating - will be 0.001 to 0.002 the full length of the bullet
    * Adjust the bullet seating die to the desired length so it will produce a slight crimp at the case before the driving band
    * Create a bell on the case mouth with the Lee Universal so 1/2 of the bullet base sets the case before the powder charging step... there will be no lead stripping when the bullet is seated with the powder charge

    ... Then every drop of the handle press will seat the bullet at the exact COAL position - Fast , no slippage of the bullet into the case - Perfect reloads
    Regards
    John

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    4,612
    I don't think your method would work that well with soft bullets without gas checks on the base. I used to load Speer's swaged lead bullets for my .357 and .38s. It always took a better expander than Lee's to prevent damage to the bullet bases.
    EDG

  3. #3
    Boolit Master


    nagantguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    MI
    Posts
    2,704
    I use the above method for loading 45 and 38 in bulk, no gas check. They are powder coated now but for years they weren’t and I had good results.

  4. #4
    Boolit Grand Master Tatume's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    VA
    Posts
    5,574
    The standard, cartridge specific, expander dies do more than bell straight-sided pistol cases. The sizing die usually reduces the neck to less than ideal, and the expander increases the inside diameter. Otherwise, as EDG said, the case will be too tight and will reduce the bullet diameter when soft bullets are seated.

    The same is not true of sizing dies for bottle-necked cartridges. They have an expander plug. When the case is inserted into the die the neck is sized a little too small, and when it is withdrawn, the expander plug provides the desired final inside diameter.

  5. #5
    Boolit Grand Master

    dragon813gt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Somewhere in SE PA
    Posts
    9,989
    The Lee die is named wrong. It’s not an expander die. It only bells the case mouth. If you don’t care about neck tension it’s a great die for belling to get a bullet started. If you care about neck tension NOE makes plugs for the Lee die to turn it into an actual expander. There’s a big difference between an expander a die that only bells the case mouth.

  6. #6
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Northern Wisconsin
    Posts
    290
    I have both and usually use the LEE. It's easy the flop between calibers and gives good results. Pretty ingenious.

  7. #7
    Boolit Grand Master

    mdi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    So. Orygun
    Posts
    7,239
    Quote Originally Posted by dragon813gt View Post
    The Lee die is named wrong. It’s not an expander die. It only bells the case mouth. If you don’t care about neck tension it’s a great die for belling to get a bullet started. If you care about neck tension NOE makes plugs for the Lee die to turn it into an actual expander. There’s a big difference between an expander a die that only bells the case mouth.
    True. It only puts a taper in the case mouth to expedite bullet seating. I have a couple M dies,but although they do work, I have had no real reason to "expand and flare" the case mouths. I load cast bullets with a BHN of from 10 to over 17 and have had no problems with either set backs nor swaging bullet's diameter when only flaring the case mouth with Lee's or home made flaring tools (38/357 Mag, 44 Sp/Mag, 9mm, 45 ACP)...
    My Anchor is holding fast!

  8. #8
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    over the hill, out in the woods and far away
    Posts
    10,158
    A soft lead bullet of 10 BHN or less, forced into a FL sized case which is only flared, will reduce bullet diameter as the bullet is seated, so that it no longer fits the cylinder throats, but will be undersized. You can determine if this is occurring by tapping the bullet out of a few loaded rounds with an inertia puller and then measuring them with a micrometer and comparing to their original diameter. Seating soft-swaged 148-grain HBWC factory bullets, such as Remington, into excessively sized cases, being flared only, rather than being expanded to 0.001" less than bullet diameter to the base of the seated bullet, will reduce bullet diameter by about 0.002 and effectively DOUBLE 50-yard group size from that expected when fired in a good target revolver.

    Not an issue with bullets harder than 12 BHN.
    Last edited by Outpost75; 12-08-2018 at 07:35 PM.
    The ENEMY is listening.
    HE wants to know what YOU know.
    Keep it to yourself.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master


    HangFireW8's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Central Maryland
    Posts
    2,587
    I use the NOE expander even where it is not necessary... or even not usually necessary. If an occasional case has more resistance then the rest, I know something's up with that case.
    I give loading advice based on my actual results in factory rifles with standard chambers, twist rates and basic accurizing.
    My goals for using cast boolits are lots of good, cheap, and reasonably accurate shooting, while avoiding overly tedious loading processes.
    The BHN Deformation Formula, and why I don't use it.
    How to find and fix sizing die eccentricity problems.
    Do you trust your casting thermometer?
    A few musings.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master MOA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Concho, Arizona. At home in the White Mountains at last. Formerly living in Mobile Alabama.
    Posts
    1,603
    I have both. Started with "M" dies for most of my cast boolit calibers, and then I also added the Lee to the equipt inventory. Both have their place in my tool line-up.

  11. #11
    Boolit Grand Master

    mdi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    So. Orygun
    Posts
    7,239
    Quote Originally Posted by Outpost75 View Post
    A soft lead bullet of 10 BHN or less, forced into a FL sized case which is only flared, will reduce bullet diameter as the bullet is seated, so that it no longer fits the cylinder throats, but will be undersized. You can determine if this is occurring by tapping the bullet out of a few loaded rounds and then measuring them with a micrometer and comparing to their original diameter. Seating soft-swaged 148-grain HBWC factory bullets, such as Remington, into excessively sized cases, being flared only, rather than being expanded to 0.001" less than bullet diameter to the base of the seated bullet, will reduce bullet diameter by about 0.002 and effectively DOUBLE 50-yard group size from that expected when fired in a good target revolver.

    Not an issue with bullets harder than 12 BHN.
    Maybe, but not necessarily so...
    My Anchor is holding fast!

  12. #12
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    over the hill, out in the woods and far away
    Posts
    10,158
    Quote Originally Posted by mdi View Post
    Maybe, but not necessarily so...
    It does depend upon accurately measured bullet hardness, actual sizing die dimensions and brass wall thickness as well as the die state of cold working or anneal of the brass to be reloaded.

    Once-fired brass is MUCH more forgiving. As one who has over the years tested dozens of revolvers off Ransom rest, also having measured bullets of known hardness prior to loading and after having extracted and measured samples after loading, I'll stick by my statement.

    As they say, your mileage may vary, and if your accuracy requirements are generous as to make sub 3-inch, 12-shot, 50 yard groups meaningless, such that you cannot discern the difference, then don't waste your time.
    Last edited by Outpost75; 12-08-2018 at 07:43 PM.
    The ENEMY is listening.
    HE wants to know what YOU know.
    Keep it to yourself.

  13. #13
    Boolit Master

    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    1,091
    It depends on the bullet diameter and the inside diameter of the neck after it leaves the sizing die. If there is a .001-.002" difference (with the neck ID being smaller, then the Lee Universal Flairing die is sufficient.

    My only problem is that the sizing die alone has never left me with the correct neck ID, so an expander die or button is needed to get the right neck ID. Otherwise the neck is too narrow for the task at hand. The exception is a bushing style neck sizer.

    I own and use the Lee die to open the case mouth in limited applications, but only after using an expander of some sort to set neck ID.

  14. #14
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    NW Oklahoma
    Posts
    311
    This topic will generate more animosity than we like here. If you like to plink and deer hunt at 100 yds one regimen will work for you. If you are trying to squeeze the last bit of accuracy out of your loads then you follow the other regimen. Neck tension is very important trying to shoot sub MOA groups with cast boolits. Hard to do and some of us strive to do this. Hunting loads at 100 to maybe 200 yds max are easier to obtain with regular practices. No disrespect here at all for the short range shooters. My uncle has killed more deer than I can count with guns that won't shoot better than 3" at 100 yds! 3" at 100 yds will take down any whitetail in my area. If you want to go down the wormhole with the rest of us and go for 1" groups at 100 yds with 5 shot groups then go with the NOE or Lyman M die route. I prefer the NOE because of the multitude of diameters you can choose from. Choose the route you want to go and stick to it. And the most important thing you can do in your quest for cast boolit accuracy is to have fun!

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    4,612
    I have not shot a whitetail in about 20 years. I found that hunting was not a good reason to be a shooter since I did so little shooting while hunting. Target shooting, plinking and accuracy testing offer me a lot more shooting.
    If you only reload to hunt you can get by without loading for accuracy but you could also get by without reloading at all.
    EDG

  16. #16
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Minnesota frozen tundra
    Posts
    245
    Track of the Wolf sells expanders, that fit in the Lee expander dies in various, larger than normal, diameters. They expand the entire neck, so you don't get the possible compression of the bullet, and in theory, give more consistent grip on the bullet. They can also be set anywhere from no flare of the case mouth to large flare. I know for sure that they have them for 45-70, but not sure about others. I think most of the rifle dies, labeled "Cowboy" also have a larger diameter expander stem.

  17. #17
    Boolit Buddy
    catmandu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Central Mississippi
    Posts
    344
    Quote Originally Posted by MOA View Post
    I have both. Started with "M" dies for most of my cast boolit calibers, and then I also added the Lee to the equipt inventory. Both have their place in my tool line-up.
    +1 I did well for a long time till some new variables came along, picked up sone guns with chamber dimensions different than I had before, also found some brass with a different wall thickness. New variables needed new tooling. Also I learned new things to check and look for and now I pick the tool that is best.

    My 2 cents.

    Paul in WNY
    Think you can, or think you can't. Either way your right.

  18. #18
    Boolit Grand Master

    jonp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    8,281
    The Lee Universal does what I need and didn't cost and arm and a leg which is usual for their equipment. Reloading equipment that works for what it is intended to do at a price everyone can afford
    I Am Descended From Men Who Would Not Be Ruled

    Fiat Justitia, Ruat Caelum

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Wilmington NC
    Posts
    1,441
    This is really pretty simple.

    The Lee die can do the job Ok for many applications. If it works, it is easy to use.

    For some applications, expanding is needed. If you load a lot of stuff, you will probably find that the Lee tool is less than optimum for some portion of what you do.

    There is no way I could load leading free in my boy's Glock 9mm with my boolits without a "just right" expander.

    If you are picky about results, using something like the Noe system with a carefully selected expander plug will give you improved consistency in neck tension and just the right bell to make it work the way you want.

    It could be summed up as "You makes your choices, you pays your money, you get what you pay for"

  20. #20
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    3,901
    Precision reloading requires consistent case neck tension, the Lee die does not deliver that.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check