Update on .38-45 Clerke project

[Patrick L]

Well, last weekend I fitted that .38-45 barrel and bushing I was given a few months back to my Gold Cup. I loaded up 30 rds, all with a 147 gr TC 9mm bullet(which approximates the .38 wadcutters most of us shot bullseye with). I loaded 3.2 and 3.5 of Bullseye. I had 3 springs too, 18.5#, 16.5#, and 15#, all variable rate. Nothing functioned, but it shot fairly accurately, and suprisingly to the sights as set for my .45 target loads.

I got back to the range last night, this time with 8,9, and 10# springs. The 10# spring allowed everything to cycle perfectly, and the slide to lock back. I really took my time with the 3.5 gr loads, and was rewarded with a 50 foot group of about 1 1/2 inches!

If I ever get around to figuring out how to post pics again I will. Darn Photobucket!

[Green Frog]

Folks that wanted to hot rod that cartridge sort of obscured what I believe was its original intended purpose, building a reliable gun for the center fire leg of the 2700 course when Bullseye was in its heyday. The various military teams had already done all the development possible for making the venerable 1911 platform shoot accurately, and the hope was to get the same gun to chamber a smaller, lower recoil round to compete with the 38 revolver. The various attempts at making a 38 Special semi-auto were stalling out, so the 38-45 seemed like a good idea. If Bullseye were still had the wide popularity it once did, you would probably be able to buy factory 38-45s. Glad you are enjoying it!

Froggie

[6string]

Yes, the 38-45 Clerke was intended as a mild and accurate round for the CF course of the Bullseye 2700 match. However, it was not intended to address any supposed problems involving the 38 Special wadcutter in the 1911 platform. Rather, it was to allow the use of the much more plentiful 1911 pistols and slides with 45 ACP breechface. These, of course, were very cheap and easily available on the surplus market and represented a huge cost savings over a full custom 38 Special conversion of a 1911, (which required an expensive commercial 1911 in 38 Super) as being done by John Giles, Jim Clark, etc.
the 38-45 Clerke just needed a barrel and reloading dies, maybe a new bushing, too.

Jim

[bruce drake]

Excellent writeup and I look forward to a few pictures in the future. Someone once asked me why I didn't hotload my .400 corbon 1911, and I said, I don't need a hand cannon, I need a bullet that will punch a hole in the bad guy where I want it to be. After that its all about the dynamics of a 155gr Truncated Cone cast lead bullet doing its best to either expand up to .45 caliber or bounce around off a few bones before departing in an exit wound at an angle different than where it went in at.

That said, I am still in the hunt for a good 38-45 1911 barrel also.

Bruce

[Mk42gunner]

So many projects, so little time....

I came across at least a partial set of forming dies for this cartridge several years ago at a local gun show. I have since gotten the needed extended shell holder (came with the .45ACP shotshell forming die).

My thoughts are to buy a 9mm barrel and rent the chambering reamer, I have enough loading dies I am sure I can cobble together a set to load it. One of these years I will come across a barrel, but don't hold your breath waiting.

Robert

[dverna]

Competitive shooters want something easy to reload and that means carbide dies and straight wall cartridges. It never did catch on for a reason.

I suspect that it headspaces on the case mouth, so after forming the case out of .45 ACP, it will need to be trimmed to length. Work that most pistol shooters do not want to do. So much easier to convert to .32 S&W Long and also get lower recoil for competitive shooting.

Interesting cartridge but better options out there IMHO. Much like the .357 Sig in some ways.

[Patrick L]

My interest in this was simply to explore the how to's of this historically interesting cartridge. And that's just what I'm doing, and having a ball!

[Patrick L]

Mk42Gunner, the forming dies are a 4 die set. If you have 4 you have them all.

Extended shell holder? I use a standard shell holder with mine. Why do you need an extended one?

[bruce drake]

Extended shellholders shorten the press stroke if I remember correctly. I've never had a need for them but some folks like them.

That said, Mk42Gunner, that been my plan if I can't find a professionally chambered 38-45 barrel also.

Bruce

[Patrick L]

According to everything I've read on this, you use a .38 Super barrel and rechamber that. That's what mine is. Of course I see no reason a 9mm barrel wouldn't work.

[bruce drake]

According to everything I've read on this, you use a .38 Super barrel and rechamber that. That's what mine is. Of course I see no reason a 9mm barrel wouldn't work.

A .38 Super barrel has been used in the past as its parent chamber's cartridge (38 Super) brass is just slightly longer (.900") than the 45 ACP case (.898") but thanks to recent developments with 1911s chambered in 9x19 by several companies now, a 1911 9x19 chambered barrel is actually more readily available and cheaper to use as a basis of this project. Most 9x19 barrels are rifled at 1-10" but many are also rifled at 1-16" because many companies choose to make both their 9x19 and 38 Super barrels with the same barrel stock on their shelves. Finding quality dies and a reamer is the long pole in the tent at this point I feel. You can buy the tooling, parts and dies new and go into the deal with the same cost of a new Glock in 357 Sig unless we do this with Ebay or bargain deals amongst friends. But then, none of us are in this thread for the aspect of a cheap conversion barrel.

Bruce

Bruce

[Patrick L]

Oh absolutely, it would be crazy to spend the money to do this on a whim. Back when I originally posted about this over the summer, I told how I was given the barrel and bushing, as well as the case forming dies and the reloading dies by a friend whose dad had passed away. The older gentleman was a very active bullseye shooter back in the heyday of the .38-45.

[Mk42gunner]

Mk42Gunner, the forming dies are a 4 die set. If you have 4 you have them all.

Extended shell holder? I use a standard shell holder with mine. Why do you need an extended one?

I don't have the ziplock bag they came in in front of me, it is buried in the loading room somewhere, but I remember three dies for sure and maybe a forth. A ziplock baggie of dies really instills confidence that you got the complete set if you know what I mean.

The reason I was thinking I needed an extended shell holder is the forming dies are very short and would need to be screwed completely into the top of the Rockchucker. For some odd reason I didn't immediately play with this set of dies, usually I make at least one or two examples of whatever my new dies make.

One other thing, I plan to at least start with a four cent recoil spring. I am not kidding that is what they cost through the Navy's supply system in 1988. I used one when I built a 9mm top end using a Springfield Armory slide that was given to me. Generic 9mm ball cases would kind of dribble out into a pile two feet from my right foot.

Robert

[Patrick L]

Oh I agree 100%. If I didn't already have an assortment of light springs from back when I had my comp gun built I would have taken a stock spring out of my parts box and started clipping coils.

This has been a fun project

[Reg]

Use a 9 m/m barrel. They work just fine

[Patrick L]

Ok now for part 2. Part 1 was a success, the barrel and bushing were fitted, accuracy was excellent with both 147 gr 9mm TC bullets and some .357 158 SWC bullets. A light spring provided 100 % function in regards to cycling, feeding, and locking the slide open on final shot. All good!!

BUT, here is the problem. There is an issue in that the formed cases are VERY tight in the chamber. Not all of them, but I'd say about 15% of the time I have to give the slide a little shove to go the last 1/8th inch into battery, another often those rounds leave the case stuck in the chamber. A cleaning rod pokes them out easily.

I may have a max tolerance die/min tolerance chamber issue. Or, I may need to start over. To be honest I just grabbed 50 garbage cases, 20+ years old, mixed headstamps, etc.to get the project started. I'm thinking now that I have a little experience in this I'll start with some virgin cases and see what happens then. Wish me luck!

[Mk42gunner]

I think I'd take the decapping pin out of my .45ACP sizer and run the cases through that as an extra step. It just may squeeze them enough to chamber freely.

My thinking is there may be a bulge below the shoulder from forming the case. This did help when I was cobbling .45ACP shotshells with an assortment of dies.

Good luck,

Robert

[Patrick L]

Actually Robert I did do that already. I sort of regard that as the "fifth step" in the forming process.

To be totally honest, I must admit to only giving that barrel a quick brushing. There could be crud built up in the chamber; wouldn't it be nice if that was all it was?

[Patrick L]

Oh wait, I just re read your post. The .45 ACP die? I never thought of that. Maybe!!

[Tackleberry41]

Mixed cases can make such issues. Try it with a single brand and check the results.