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Thread: Bismuth alloy REAL bullet w/gas check?

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy HumptyDumpty's Avatar
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    Bismuth alloy REAL bullet w/gas check?

    Okay, so I have been mulling over the creation of a non-toxic hunting load for my soon-to-be-aquired TC Hawken, 50 caliber rifle. Now, I already have a Lee REAL bullet mold, for a 320 grain projecticle, as well as a 160 grain round-ball. From everything I have read, a bismuth-tin alloy, such as that offered by Rotometals (88/12, bismuth to tin), seems to work just fine for prb, and centerfire bullets. However, it seems there are three inescapable issues:
    1. I'll get little in the way of deformation or expansion
    2. The non-toxi projectile will be a little lighter
    3. Bismuth has a low very melting point. The bullet base may melt, reulting in a loss of accuracy, and fouling.

    The first two, I am prepared to live with. The last, I thought I might overcome with a 50 caliber gas check. Any thoughts? I hadn't intended to size the projectiles, so I'll need a good way of properly crimping the gas checks. I have a few ideas, but perhaps you've already invented that wheel.

  2. #2
    Boolit Grand Master

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    A over powder wad cut to fit the barrel snug will protect the base of the bullet. Something along the lines of LDPE, cork, rubber fiber gasket material, milk cartoon, or even felt will work to protect base and seal from gas cutting. Felt could be dipped in melted lube to add some lube and help it seal if needed. A gas check may make the real bullet hard to load and start straight.

    The over powder wad can be thumbed into muzzle the bullet set on it and then rammed down as normal with the short starter and ramrod. If using a loading block the wad and bullet can be set in together and push into bore together.

    What may be even better for the bismuth muzzle loading bullet is a bore dia bullet and paper patch it. The patched wrapped bullet with the patch just covering the base would protect the base and give a good grip on the rifling.

    I was under the impression from adds and other information bismuth was heavier than lead which would result in a heavier ball or bullet.

  3. #3
    Boolit Buddy HumptyDumpty's Avatar
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    Hmm, I think I'll give both those methods a try; they save me the price of a gas check.

  4. #4
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    Not sure you will be able to get a bismuth alloy REAL to engrave.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    I don't understand why people take something so simple and fool proof as a traditional muzzleloader using black powder and a patched round lead ball. then try to make it so hard and complicated to use.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob208 View Post
    I don't understand why people take something so simple and fool proof as a traditional muzzleloader using black powder and a patched round lead ball. then try to make it so hard and complicated to use.
    Cause they can ,sometimes it even works .But not in this case !

  7. #7
    Boolit Buddy HumptyDumpty's Avatar
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    Well, it's simple: I''d prefer to use non-toxic rounds and shot, for animals which I, or my loved ones, are going to consume. The research is out there, the meat does get contaminated. Now, is it enough to matter? Can't say for certain. So, I'll use lead if nothing else works, but I intend to give this a go first. My main reason for purchasing a muzzle-loader, is because I missed the centerfire season this year; I'll still shoot the rifle recreationaly year-round (with lead), but for this particular purpose, I don't mind doing a little extra work, and creating more expensive rounds. I already have the alloy on it's way, I might as well make the effort.
    And yes, I wear a respirator, and gloves, when casting. No reason to be reckless.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master arcticap's Avatar
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    Most all of the research about lead contamination of hunting meat involves lead particles that spread from bullets that are fired from high powered rifles.
    Those high velocity bullets tend to fragment and disperse lead to a much higher degree than muzzle loading projectiles which the lead dispersal is rather benign if at all.
    That's a big plus for the use of muzzle loaders.
    Of course it would be recommended to removed any meat surrounding the wound or that was damaged by the lead projectile or shot that may have come into contact with it or fragmented by hitting bone.
    But the use of pure lead with muzzle loaders helps to eliminate most of the fragmentation compared to what occurs when using high powered rifles.
    Some water jug tests of even plated lead bullets have shown that 99.9% of the bullet weight remains intact after being fired from a muzzle loader.
    That test result that I recently saw was from a home test done with a Speer Deep Curl bullet that was fired along with a sabot from an inline rifle.
    And it's a pretty simple operation to remove any shotgun damaged meat from small game unless the game is peppered with too much lead shot.
    But there's always the alternative non-toxic or plated shot.
    Many folks simply use non-toxic [often pure copper] bullets fired with sabots which are readily available.
    And there's also some other alternative non-toxic bullets.

    This test was done shooting a 270 grain Deep Curl [flat] soft point bullet with 80 grains of Blackhorn 209.
    At the end of the video, it shows the weight of the recovered bullet is 269.6 grains which is 99.9% of its original weight.

    Last edited by arcticap; 12-01-2018 at 02:31 PM.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
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    I understand your goal. If you proceed you can knock the last item off your issues. As mentioned above, load with a card wad, then lubed felt wad.

    I do that with all of my conical loads. I put the powder in then a .060 veggie card wad. I ram the wad and compress it on the powder. This also 'wipes' the bore a bit before loading the bullet. Then I place the felt wad and put the bullet on top of that. Them ram those. I don't hunt so all my bullets are bore dia. They just slide down with the weight of the ramrod. Most of the time I shoot paper patched bullets. Recovered paper shows no burning from the powder charge.

    PS Paper patching might not work for bismuth. Not sure where it is on the hardness scale but PP bullets need to be very soft to upset in the bore. Pure lead kind of soft (7-8bh).
    Last edited by charlie b; 12-02-2018 at 07:25 AM.

  10. #10
    DOR RED BEAR's Avatar
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    if you are that worried about lead contamination then i suggest a spear or bow and arrow. people take some of this stuff way to far. most studies that say something is bad for you use doses no one will likely never get. if a huge amount is bad then even a minute amount must be bad to. the reasearchers claim to much food is bad for you so we should probably stop eating to.

  11. #11
    Boolit Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by RED BEAR View Post
    if you are that worried about lead contamination then i suggest a spear or bow and arrow. people take some of this stuff way to far. most studies that say something is bad for you use doses no one will likely never get. if a huge amount is bad then even a minute amount must be bad to. the reasearchers claim to much food is bad for you so we should probably stop eating to.
    Tell him about water poisoning too!
    Micah 6:8
    He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

    "I don't have hobbies - I'm developing a robust post-apocalyptic skill set"
    I may be discharged and retired but I'm sure I did not renounce the oath that I solemnly swore!

  12. #12
    Boolit Master
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    Let the guy do what he wants. No reason to get all up tight about it.

    As to lead issues, it really does not matter what is 'safe' or is not. The government will make that decision for us, like they did with waterfowl and lead shot.

    Just hope they allow lead bullets for a bit longer.

  13. #13
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by William Yanda View Post
    Tell him about water poisoning too!
    You refer to the deadly dihydrogenmonoxide????

  14. #14
    Boolit Grand Master FergusonTO35's Avatar
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    I would pour a couple of the REALs and try 'em without a gas check or wad at first just to see how they do. Blackpowder and substitutes are pretty forgiving as far as boolit hardness goes. Hint: REAL boolits work great with Bore Butter just rubbed on with the fingers.
    Currently casting and loading: .32 Auto, .380 Auto, .38 Special, 9X19, .357 Magnum, .257 Roberts, 6.5 Creedmoor, .30 WCF, .308 WCF, .45-70.

  15. #15
    Boolit Grand Master Good Cheer's Avatar
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    HD,
    If you are hunting at short ranges there are even brass balls available from industrial supplies that will put meat on the table.

    For lower cost solutions, how difficult is it to melt down scrap copper and create usable round ball?
    Last edited by Good Cheer; 12-03-2018 at 08:30 PM.

  16. #16
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    Will Bismuth be too hard to obturate when fired like a lead REAL would?

    If it was me, and I just had to use a non toxic bullet in a muzzle loader, I'd skip the REAL, cast a .44 SWC of some sort out of Bismuth and use one of the plastic sabots that are designed for pistol bullets. I've done this successfully with .44 bullets I cast in an inline.

  17. #17
    DOR RED BEAR's Avatar
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    lead in water is a load of bull to. the great flint water crisis what a joke. most water systems in the us fail the epa standars. i will say i do have a water filter on my drinking water because it taste terrible. county sent out letter telling everyone with health problems to comtact doctor before drinking.

  18. #18
    Boolit Grand Master


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    I've played with bismuth a bit, but never cast a bullet of it. The stuff is incredibly brittle, and relatively hard. I have a feeling that even if you could ram the REAL down the barrel, it would fracture the driving bands. I wouldn't even bother trying. The round ball might work. A bismuth RB can't be much different than a hard lead ball. Bismuth is an acceptable alternative to lead shot in a shotgun, especially compared to steel shot. I would not bother with it in a rifle though. There are various non toxic balls or bullets you can buy that would perform much better. You will find that the bismuth alloy behaves differently than lead. It stays in a "slushy" state much longer. Even when it looks solid, it can still have a liquid core that can leak, at least when I was casting ingots. It's weird stuff. The melting point isn't that low, I seem to remember it being about 500 degrees. A little lower than lead, but not enough to worry about. You can try the round balls if you like, but I really don't think a conical will work.

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
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    Looks like a workable alloy is 88/12 tin,so cost would be $20 lb,with no scrap available either.The other problem I see is the metal expands on cooling,meaning bullets may stick tightly in mold cavities......As to ingots breaking apart,lead does that ,a 112lb ingot takes a while to cool ,even with a water spray.If you dump the mould out too soon,the ingot breaks open,and liquid runs out.

  20. #20
    Boolit Master

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    I have zero concern about bullet melt.

    Just like I have zero concern for my finger catching on fire when I pass it through a candle flame. There's just not enough time with fire under the bullet to worry about melting.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check