Brush busting bullets

[AntiqueSledMan]

Black Jaque Janaviac,

I stand corrected as I can't find the video I referenced, the 6 part Ruger Old Army Projectile Test was part of what I referenced. I thought I seen one with the Colt Pointed projectile which they couldn't keep a single one in the jugs, they kept running out the sides. Unfortunately I never documented it so it's myth.

Sorry, AntiqueSledMan.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

I did a very unscientific test once using a mutiflora rose bush as a deflector with the target about 50 yards beyond. I was shooting a 30-08 with 180 spire points and a 458 Winchester with 540 grain flat nose bullets(as I said, very unscientific).
The 180 spire points were all over. Many didn't make it to the target. Those that did were mostly sideways.
The 458 slugs actually grouped on the target and didn't seem bothered much by the brush.
I can't say what would have happened if the deflecting brush was thicker.

Well yeah. I think we'd all expect thicker brush to deflect even the .458. But you have at least some evidence to say that the .30-06 spire points deflected with even a mild brush screen. In the past, people would see your test and say, "See heavy bullets plow through brush better." But I'm beginning to wonder if we're barking up the wrong tree. What if that .30-06 was a 180 grain roundnose? How much of the .458's success in that test was due to the flat nosed shape? And, as per Popper's post, how much of the .458's success was due to its slower rate of spin?

[longbow]

I'd have to look for that old Ross Seyfried article to properly reference comments but a couple of differences between those RB's and muzzleloader balls are that this was a smoothbore shotgun so no spin on the ball and ball likely cast from hard lead.

Also, a 12 ga. ball is substantially larger and heavier than most muzzleloader balls so more mass to deflect.

Personally I have to think that nose shape and mass are major players in this discussion but of course that is just my opinion.

What does amaze me and I'm sure you guys have all seen it too is just how much a boolit/bullet can deflect off course once it is upset. I would not have though that something travelling that fast could change course so rapidly but so they do!

[popper]

Rotational momentum. Slow spin, light boolit, not much momentum. Gyros do nasty things when you push them off the spin axis. Fast spire point is going to have the C.P. in front of the C.G. so the 'lever' creates torque to turn the bullet. FN or RN the 'lever' is shorter. Relative shot 308MX FTX at yard signs, bends the steel support, never cut. IMHO the dowel doesn't reflect brush very well. Live branches move when hit, dowels don't, they break.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Rotational momentum. Slow spin, light boolit, not much momentum. Gyros do nasty things when you push them off the spin axis. Fast spire point is going to have the C.P. in front of the C.G. so the 'lever' creates torque to turn the bullet. FN or RN the 'lever' is shorter. Relative shot 308MX FTX at yard signs, bends the steel support, never cut. IMHO the dowel doesn't reflect brush very well. Live branches move when hit, dowels don't, they break.

C.G. = center of gravity. And C.P. is the center of the length of the boolit? So boolit shape scores a point in being a potential factor in brush busting.

[GregLaROCHE]

After reading these posts and doing some research. I wonder if the best Boolit for brush isn’t a simple round ball traveling just fast enough to give the required power to do the job it has to, when it reaches its target. Add just enough spin to stabilize it and that’s it.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

After reading these posts and doing some research. I wonder if the best Boolit for brush isn’t a simple round ball traveling just fast enough to give the required power to do the job it has to, when it reaches its target. Add just enough spin to stabilize it and that’s it.

Greg, That seems to be what the physics tells us. But I have over 20 years experience with roundball hunting, and they seem to be miserable brush-busters. I am thinking it may be due to the soft lead so easily getting mis-shaped and throwing the gyroscope off-balance.

There are some muzzleloaders out ther made with Forsyth rifling that are intended to shoot hardened lead. They are all in the custom category and out of my reach, I am kinda hoping someone here might have such a beast. Perhaps they can testify to the performance of a hard lead alloy rb.

[Wayne Smith]

I think you are looking at the wrong variable. I remember my dad telling me of a squirrel he shot at with his 30-30 (170gr bullet) through a small tree, the squirrel being on the back side of the tree. His bullet went through the tree, the eruption of wood pushed the squirrel's back end up in the air, he recovered, and went on up the tree.

Solid hit, slows the bullet down, probably deforming it. Glancing hit, no prediction where the boolit will go. That's my take on it. Yes the type of bullet and the location vs muzzle/target will effect the amount of deflection, but deflect it will.

[GregLaROCHE]

So why do you need to shoot pure lead in a muzzle loader? I thought it was so the boolit or ball would obturate, making a better seal in the bore. What are these new barrels that can shoot hard lead? Is wear involved? Is obturation not a factor with them?

I just checked the weight of round balls and was surprised to see how light they are. At least comparing a .45cal ball to what I shoot out of my .45-70.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Yes the type of bullet and the location vs muzzle/target will effect the amount of deflection,

Wayne, we agree. What this discussion is about is how bullet types affect the amount of deflection.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

So why do you need to shoot pure lead in a muzzle loader? I thought it was so the boolit or ball would obturate, making a better seal in the bore. What are these new barrels that can shoot hard lead? Is wear involved? Is obturation not a factor with them?

I just checked the weight of round balls and was surprised to see how light they are. At least comparing a .45cal ball to what I shoot out of my .45-70.

Greg, with a muzzleloader & roundball the cloth patch is what engages the rifling. But you have to compress the patch between the lead and the lands by hand. So soft lead starts in the muzzle far easier than even air cooled wheel weights (which is soft by breechloading standards). Also a roundball has the minimum amount of bore-riding surface area that can be achieved for a given caliber. This makes it easy to skip rifling, so roundball rifling is often very deep, like 0.15" groove depths.

This forsyth rifling is not really new, but you could say is was rediscovered in the 1990s. It was first employed by African hunters who wanted to shoot hardened lead to penetrate rhino hide (literally). Forsyth rifling is really slow twist (1:104"), has shallow grooves (0.007"), and narrow lands (1/2 width of grooves).

[GregLaROCHE]

Thanks for the info. I’m not a muzzle loader, but who knows what the future may bring.

By the way, what caliber/calibers are you muzzle loading?

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Greg,
.32, .36, .45, .50, and .54. Some have shallow grooves, so perhaps I could try casting up some air-cooled WW balls and see if they shoot well enough without a brush screen. Then experiment with them in brush.

I agree with one of the previous posts that live twigs are going to make for a better test than dry dowels. I also think that you'd need more than a 3 shot group since, as has been discussed, how the bullet contacts the obstruction will govern how badly it deflects. It seems too likely that you could get 3 lucky shots with one trial and 3 unlucky shots with another trial.

[GregLaROCHE]

I agree to get any hard evidence you would have to have a lot of sample shots.

There are people who shoot .45 round balls our of .45 colts or long colts. There’s a YouTube video about it. If you could get a hold of one of those rifles and test different hardness alloy you might find some of the information you are wondering about. All in all, it could turn into a big project. Maybe you could find an organization or magazine that would be interested in looking into it.

I’m a big advocate of powder coating. I don’t know if anyone has experimented with PC on round balls. Maybe the PC could protect the soft lead enough to make a difference.

[tazman]

Back when I was shooting muzzle loading rifles, I tried some hard lead round balls. They were harder to start into the muzzle but shot well once loaded.
I used them on squirrels.

[Wayne Smith]

Wayne, we agree. What this discussion is about is how bullet types affect the amount of deflection.

Since we are talking about 'brush busting' boolits - thus hunting, IHMO ANY deflection is devastating and a thing to be avoided.

I do understand the theoretical discussion, though.

[popper]

A little bump sends them off-course? Yup. Army did tests on 223 stability of various bullets and twist. Test was done in a long box, cardboard placed at various angles to unstabilize a bullet , then trace it's path through the box.
I agree with Wayne - avoid if possible. When hog hunting from a stand, lots of Johnson grass to shoot through. I did shoot at one through grass & small mesquite and did get a hit as I found blood on the grass but no hog. Shooting through a thicket is different, especially with optics. IMHO heavy for caliber and slow has higher probability. No such thing as a brush buster slug.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Popper, the army only proved that spitzer pointed .223 bullets are bad at plowing through cardboard.

If there is one thing that I am being convinced of it is that nobady has really bothered to TRY to design a brush buster. It seems that at most they've designed ever-increasing long range guns, then test them against brush penetration and concluded they all stink.

[GregLaROCHE]

I don’t think there is a need for something to be designed. I think most possibilities already exist.

The heavier the boolit the better. The blunter and maybe shorter could help, but all these things exist. It’s now a choice to be made. I’m sure this has a lot of military applications. Take elephant grass in Vietnam. If there were a better answer I think the military would have come up with it by now. So far, I haven’t heard of any special brush busting military round.

[mozeppa]

wouldn't it be easier to shoot a running chain saw towards your target ...then shoot the target?