Swam with the Hammerheads Today!

[Blood Trail]

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[missionary5155]

For me once the mold is purchased the cost is near nothing for the projectile. The mold can be sold in the future. Lead is not that expensive if you have to buy it. So that gets us down to the wad.

[jmort]

The price you pay for accuracy. Hammerheads, in my experience, is far more accurate at distance than any foster slug I’ve shot.

To be more fair in your comparison, you’d have to compare Foster slug to foster slug, and sabot to sabot. We all know sabots are more expensive.

Do the comparison between these at copper solids or accutips.

Good point

[Ranch Dog]

For me once the mold is purchased the cost is near nothing for the projectile. The mold can be sold in the future. Lead is not that expensive if you have to buy it. So that gets us down to the wad.

I just did an inventory of the wads that I purchased on the hope that they would work with the Lee & Lyman, wads that were recommended . $270 sitting in a box that did not deliver one usable group at 100-yards. So compared to that, the STI sabots are dirt cheap.

[Ranch Dog]

I can get the Federal Truball Deep Penetrators for around $.80 per round. Slugs R Us starts at $.40 per wad or $.75 per wad and slug. At these prices, I am not sure we have a solution considering the cost. This is the rabbit-hole we always go down with 12 gauge slugs. We have been at this for a few years now. Always very interesting. Ultimately, we need an inexpensive wad and slug that is as accurate as the factory slugs. The Hammerhead is accurate, but comparatively is not inexpensive.

I just did an inventory of the wads that I purchased on the hope that they would work with the Lee & Lyman, wads that were recommended. $270 sitting in a box that did not deliver one usable group at 100-yards. So compared to that, the STI sabots are dirt cheap.

The trouble is that a pressure wad is not a pressure sabot. The wad walls are too thin and the strut too weak. Ounce per ounce, starting a column of shot (which the pressure wad is designed for) is not the same as starting a solid slug. Just the cup design supports the ounce per ounce comparison. A pressure wad designed for one ounce of shot is too deep for a one-ounce slug if you don't trim the petals, they fail and compromise the performance of the strut. My experience has been that even trimming the petals compromises the design of the entire pressure wad.

As you noted, the Lee and Lyman slugs have been down the rabbit hole a lot of years. I have searched six years and have not found anyone that documented a respectable group from these projectiles at 100-yards. The best thing we could do to see modern designs from Lee and Lyman would be to stop buying their present offerings.

Would love to see some penetration testing [of the STI sabot & Hammerhead slug]

I won't be able to do the gel tests but will put the STIs on a hog. I can already tell you how that is going to go; they will blow right through them. I would not say that with the Lee or Lyman. If their helical flight happened to be in time to a POA hit, I think that they would be wobbling so bad that penetration would be compromised. They are terrible designs.

[longbow]

What I don't get... and without a rifled gun to test things I may never get it... is what is wrong with full bore slugs in rifled gun? Eliminate the shotcup or pressure wad and eliminate that variable.

Greg Sappington, who some of you may remember as he used to post here and on shotgunworld quite a bit, went through all sorts of designs for wad slugs before concluding that full bore slugs or proper sabot slugs are more accurate. He pointed out the obvious variations in wall thickness of CSD wads and certainly the ones I have are terribly inconsistent in wall thickness. You wouldn't even consider that much error as reasonable for a metallic cartridge reload and it certainly doesn't add to accuracy for shotgun slugs either.

With plastic hulls in sloppy chambers and bore dimensions that vary all over the map we are not likely to see "rifle" like accuracy from our shotguns, rifled or not but the fact that H&H Paradox guns, and I'm sure other of similar design, could 5" groups at 100 yards using both barrels with full bore slugs makes me think that we are missing something.

In my case, I've been struggling along with smoothbores trying to "beat" them but I think I've been beaten! Out to 50 yards I am happy but trying to realize consistent hunting level 100 yard accuracy... well, not so much. I'd happily take a dependable 5" group at 100 yards.

Anyway, point being is that all the effort seems to be towards wad slugs, Hammerhead slugs and true sabot slugs. There seems to be far more in the way of slug designs available in Europe and Russia than in the west and most of that seems to be full bore slugs.

Why aren't people looking at modern bore guns like the old English style guns that took shotgun shells with balls or slugs and were rifled with slow twists?

My rifled choke tube will be 1:72" twist when done. Well, it is 1:72" twist now and about half rifled (as in half deep)... finally! Hoping to be finished in a week or so. I picked 1:72" as a compromise. It is fast for full bore round ball or square solid slug but fast enough it should handle a longer slug as well. We'll see.

Longbow

[bikerbeans]

LB,

With a rifled shotgun I think a fullbore solid base slug is the way to go. Better yet is use a slow enough powder to fill the hull and eliminate all the plastic between the powder and projectile; minimize components, minimizes variables.

The downside to this loading technique in a 12ga is recoil. The only powder i know that will work is SR 4759 and it had been out of production for years.

Hogtamer's Zlugs could help reduce the recoil to a tolerable level.

BB

[Blood Trail]

The trouble is that a pressure wad is not a pressure sabot. The wad walls are too thin and the strut too weak. Ounce per ounce, starting a column of shot (which the pressure wad is designed for) is not the same as starting a solid slug. Just the cup design supports the ounce per ounce comparison. A pressure wad designed for one ounce of shot is too deep for a one-ounce slug if you don't trim the petals, they fail and compromise the performance of the strut. My experience has been that even trimming the petals compromises the design of the entire pressure wad.

As you noted, the Lee and Lyman slugs have been down the rabbit hole a lot of years. I have searched six years and have not found anyone that documented a respectable group from these projectiles at 100-yards. The best thing we could do to see modern designs from Lee and Lyman would be to stop buying their present offerings.


I won't be able to do the gel tests but will put the STIs on a hog. I can already tell you how that is going to go; they will blow right through them. I would not say that with the Lee or Lyman. If their helical flight happened to be in time to a POA hit, I think that they would be wobbling so bad that penetration would be compromised. They are terrible designs.

I think I’m on my way for usable Lyman slug groups at 100 yards. This was my 50 yard group result 3 weeks ago. 4 shots.




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[megasupermagnum]

I also think a full diameter slug could be very accurate. The problem is you can choose low velocity, or a snot blasting recoil. Then there is the wadding between again. Here is a crazy idea I've had in my head. Have RMC make a custom set of brass hulls that fit my particular chamber as tight as possible, with an ID to hold a slug tight. Basically make a 12 gauge rifle cartridge. Then load full with Fg blackpowder, and hold on. But there is the whole thing with the cost again, RMC isn't cheap, plus the 200 grains or so of blackpowder isn't all that economical. Plus you get crazy recoil again.

[Ranch Dog]

I wish you the best BT! That is similar to the result I saw and 50, but it all went to heck at 75-yards. They were lucky to hit the target cardboard backing. All my slug work has been in 25-yard increments. Keep us posted.

[Ranch Dog]

I'm at the point where I'm happy with the Hammerheads. I'm also thankful that I don't have to hunt with a slug gun in Texas. I will get a hog killed in the coming week and get back to some centerfires that need my attention.

[longbow]

I've thought about the brass hull thing too and it would make sense except the brass would be so thick it wouldn't swell to seal the chamber.

Standard brass with a custom oversize barrel would work or possibly necking standard brass hulls down to standard slug diameter would work. The brass would see a lot of working though without a custom chamber.

I wonder if a ribbed slug (Brenneke like) or something like the old Paradox bullets with narrow driving bands and deep groove could be made to fit brass hulls but swage down safely to suit standard rifled bore? That would likely be the easiest.

Anyone know internal diameter of brass hulls other than about 11 ga.?

I'm thinking a bullet like that casting ar 0.740" to maybe 0.745" like those old Paradox bullets might fit the brass hulls yet still swage to "normal" 12 ga. bore... same idea should apply to 16 or 20 ga. too for those not interested in 12 ga.

Sorry msm and others, I kinda wandered a bit.

Longbow

[pashiner]

All of a sudden, hubel458 and his 12 gauge from hell doesn't sound so crazy! I think RMC makes thick walled brass shells that have a proper .730 inside diameter, but don't hold me to that...maybe shoot them an email? Suppose you were to anneal the top 2/3 of a thick brass shell to give it a better chance to seal the bore, put in 150ish grains of fg black powder, then a thick fiber or felt wad(or 2) and a full bore slug? Sounds like a reasonable load that is built like a good BPCR rifle cartridge to me. I suspect the trick would be to use a rifled barrel with a 2 3/4 chamber to maintain a sane powder capacity with a minimum of wad height, and allow the nose of the slug to be seated right close to the start of the rifling. At least, that's how my old trapdoor rifle likes to be loaded. Too much jump to the rifling and accuracy disappears and the barrel gets fouled quicker. I've considered taking this route with slugs, but the only rifled barrel I have is 3 1/2 chamber. That would take quite some powder charge!

[longbow]

Ed Hubel started out with typical shotguns and slugs as far as I know and he came up with some pretty impressive velocities at safe pressures using slow for shotgun powders. One was something like 120 grs. of 4227 (if memory serves) under a 1 oz. or 1 1/4 oz. or thereabouts slug. Don't go loading that up without checking first!

I know it was a very hefty load of 4227 under a typical weight range slug. There was enough slow powder to provide long burn time at safe pressure. The velocities were pretty impressive but I am betting the recoil was also pretty impressive, though not likely a bad jab as shotguns tend to produce but more of a heavy push due to slow powder. That and it would be hard on a guy's wallet at 120 grs. of powder per shot. Okay for developing a very powerful hunting load but not something most people would shoot a lot of.

Back to the brass hulls... I wonder if they could have thick walls up to slug level to both reduce volume for less wad column but thin case mouth for 1/4" or 3/8" to seal and allow an over slug wad/plastic disk and a bit of a roll crimp to retain it all?

There would still be that perilous jump through the forcing cone though. Only way to get rid of that is to ream a more rifle like chamber and use chamber filling hull or get a blank barrel chambered short with a rifle like chamber then have short brass hull made to suit. That should work for plastic hull too... at least to get rid of the forcing cone and that jump through it.

If done you could use a full bore slug, little if any wadding or gas seal (maybe just gas seal?)... or since this would take a custom chamber then make the chamber so suit a "proper" brass cartridge then you'd have a short fat brass cartridge with full bore slug that could be seated with neck tension on the brass or even crimped and no forcing cone issue.

That would take an unchambered barrel and custom reamer to accomplish though. Not impossible but a substantial project and not really a shotgun in the end.

An approach I kinda like is the way H&H retains those Paradox slugs:

http://www.oldammo.com/june17.htm

Scroll down just a bit to see the loaded rounds with the hull crimped into that big groove around the slug.

With that method, you could seat the slug down in the hull but leave the hull full length and start the crimp over the nose of the slug to provide better feeding in a pump or bolt gun. That would allow minimizing wad column height.

Longbow

[RMc]

What do you want from a 12 gauge rifle?

Consider that a .730" / 730 grain hard cast lead bullet at 1050fps and sighted in for 75 yards, gives a usable trajectory of about 2" high at 50 and about 4" low at 100 yards.

[longbow]

Here's a another one:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/...t&Number=18637

What do I want from a 12 ga. "rifle"? I like the idea of the Paradox type guns that can be used with birdshot, buckshot or slug/boolit and provide decent hunting level accuracy to 100 or maybe 125 yards.

Why? I like the versatility of shotguns but want better slug accuracy than a typical smoothbore gives... with affordable ammunition and slugs I can cast myself. I would have thought this more easily achievable but apparently not! I've seen lots of posts here and on other sites claiming "rifle like" accuracy from smoothbores to 100 yards but I've seen very few good targets posted and usually only one group of 3 shots when they are.

Even rifled guns do not seem to be easy to get "rifle like" accuracy from past 50 yards or so. In the case of rifled shotguns I'd consider "rifle like" accuracy to be consistent groups of about 4" at 100 yards with home cast slugs and home loaded ammunition. That would keep me happy. I had been led to believe that was doable from smoothbore but I've not seen it.

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

LB: Thanks for the article on Paradox guns. I runs parallel to my Recollections from the 1962 G&A article, only the gun in the article was an Evan's Paradox. A poor man's Double Rifle. I was surprised how many of the facts of that article I had retained.

A 4" 5 shot group I would consider to be pretty good shooting, and 2 or 3 like it would prove the point.

The limitation I see is in the Slugs themselves, and more properly in the casting of said slugs.

Unlike most big rifle Boolits the slugs I have cast in the last two weeks have been more prone to casting irregularities. The Lyman Foster mould produces a good slug about 1 out of 5 pours! Might be me? But I have other Lyman moulds that produce perfect boolits with every pour. Even then the ones that appear to be good are not round, they are .002-.004 out of round, which makes them useless beyond 50 yards and suspect even before that. These obviously would not work in the rifled barrel and probably will be marginal in the smooth bore as well. I don't see the design of the slug being the problem, only the execution. Plenty of good Foster Slugs out there.

The Lyman Sabot Slug from the NOE mould is a different story. They come out good nearly every drop and they also look good. They are round and don't have voids in them. They also fit the Blue Wads correctly. Whether or not they will group well from a rifled barrel remains to be seen.

As soon as the gun comes back from Art's Gun Shop in Missouri I will have a gun with both a Smooth Bore Slug Barrel and a Rifled Slug Barrel, so I will be able to test slugs in both barrels.

The Smooth bore barrel will be getting shot most as I can shoot bird buck and slugs thru it for Front Sight and 3 Gun. I have shot enough groups with my M500 with the Vang Comped barrel to know that 2-2.5" groups at 50 yards are not only possible, they are relatively easy. All mine have been shot off hand!

Beyond 50 yards the flight of the slug becomes the issue. Will it keep going in the same direction or will it go stupid. Signs point to the latter. But Spinning that slug would probably have a positive effect.

The Hammerhead slug (I've got a mould and sabots coming) should prove to be the most accurate. I live in CA and can't shoot lead boolits at any game animal. But I can make Brass Boolits on my lathe and they will remove all doubt as to the integrity of the projectile.

I feel that the ultimate accuracy from a Rifled Shotgun will come from those lathe turned brass slugs, and lathe turned sabots as well..

Randy

[Cap'n Morgan]

Using custom made brass hulls would certainly be possible. I made a bunch of turned brass cases for my Martini Henry 577/450 with a an internal volume about the same as a 45-70. This made it much easier to work up a good load with smokeless powder. As long as the pressure was kept below about 18.000 psi, cases would last practically forever. As a bonus the cases didn't need resizing and they had an internal step in the neck to keep the boolit from moving back into the case. The neck walls were rather thick, but since the cases was turned to the exact measurements of the chamber leaking wasn't a problem at all.

Shotgun cases could be made in the same way. The first inch or so of the case could be of bore diameter stepping down to 1/2" for the rest. The reduced volume would eliminate the need for wads and stuff while still having a full length case. The lube would probably be enough to keep the slug in place - otherwise a dab of superglue should do the trick - no need for crimping.

Due to the simple profile cases could easily be made on a manual lathe from free cutting brass stock. A serious shotgun slug benchrest nut might even do a chamber cast and lengthen/matching the case into the forcing cone to minimize the jump.

[uncle dino]

The biggest difference I can see in paradox and modern rifled shotguns is the rifling. From pictures I have seen. Rifling on paradox has very narrow lands and wide grooves. Modern rifled shotgun barrels have very wide lands. Wide lands are fine for plastic, which is flexible and soft. It increases engraving pressure on lead or copper full bore slug. If you recover a full bore slugs shot from modern rifled barrels, no 2 slugs will be engraved the same. Is it a chamber dimension issue? Or is it a barrel issue? I think it's a combination. With increased engraving pressure, it is my opinion that the slug will ride up over the rifling with the wide lands, causing uneven engraving. Therefore destroying accuracy.. D

[W.R.Buchanan]

I just copied this post from another site I ran into. it's about Hastings "Paradox" barrels. Right from them.


Hi guys,

Just had a long chat with the Tech Director at Hastings. Most of the theory above was confirmed. Hastings took over the Paradox name and trademarked it about 35 years ago, intentionally playing on the H&H Paradox Rifle/Shotgun design and positive word-of-mouth concerning those guns. The early paradox designs, I am told, generally had as standard the last 9" of the barrel with rifling, and the rest of it smoothbore back to the forcing cone at the end of the chamber.
Current production Paradox barrels are rifled full length, and also have a tapered forcing cone section transitioning from the chamber to the start of the rifled bore, to allow for variable length shells. Thereis some thought being given to changing to a fixed chamber lenght without that taper, thought being that some tiny bit of wobble may be introduced in that gap when using shorter shells in these genral purpose chambers.

Oddly enough, there are still "Paradox" style barrels being made today, by Hastings, with only the last 9" of the barrel being rifled. These are made for export to Japan, where fully rifled shotgun barrels by law make the weapon a "Rifle" which is illegal for citizens to own in that country.

These are created by taking a normal rifled "Paradox" barrel and honing out the rifling from the chamber forward to the magical 9" from the muzzle position.

So, if you really feel the need to recreate the old H&H PARADOX GUN, and don't want to spend the $70,000.00 on the task, then a Hastings Export barrel will do it.

As to twist rates, etc. I'm also told that Paradox 12 gauge barrels are all 1/34 twist, and the 20 gauge are all 1/24 twist. Anybody looking for the slowest twist rate in a 12 gauge, which in theory should impart the most spin to the slug due to less skidding in the barrel, should be looking at Mossberg, who uses a 1/36 twist.

Of course, using high speed sabots in an Aluminum frame lightweight pump gun seems to me to be not the cleverest move one could make.

Insider info from high speed photography seems to indicate that slower twist rates actually do produce morespin with increasing velocities, while the 1/24 works best with lesser velocity loads. Seems counter-intuitive, but "them's what the pictures show" Folks at Hastings maintain that their choices of twist rates were made based on analysis of range results with the full spread of muzzle velocities and slug designs available.
Of course every manufacturer has a slightly different twist, so you'd have to assume each Company would have a good story to tell about the choices they made.

There is also 100% confirmation that eliminating rifling length reduces spin which diminishes downrange accuracy. The longer the barrel and the rifling, the more spin, and the tighter the groups at distance. Probably the ONLY 100% predictable result in anything to do with firearms.

We also got into some theory on hammer milling versus button rifling, etc. and land/groove shapes and definition that result from the different processes, but that's fodder for a whole other round of argument...

As an aside, those Hornaday High Speed firecrackers seem to exit most slug guns with relatively less spin than any other sabots, altough they are flying at light speed Warp Five, so there is some question in the minds of a few of us concerning what the point of the extra speed is, if you lose downrange accuracy once the load speed gets too fast for the guns everybody uses?

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Randy