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Thread: Muzzleloader questions

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
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    Muzzleloader questions

    Found the forum for paper patch black powder but not much on muzzleloader...

    Stopped by the local gas station/general store at my home town over Thanksgiving where I bought a Remington Genesis for a song...(30 bucks) I figured I have at least a dozen other projects and hobbies I never get time for why not add another. It will give me two extra weeks in Louisiana (1 before and 1 after rifle season)

    It's 50 cal - and of course id like to cast for it....I have cast for smokeless cartridges for all my reloading...but I have zero idea about muzzleloader...

    I know black powder is much faster than smokeless... smokeless and black are not substitution for one another....

    I don't understand what f, ff, or fff are (I'm guessing grades of fineness?)

    Why do black powders seem to be loaded with a bucket load of grease?

    I'm assuming there are a thousand shades of burn rates and profiles of burn just as smokeless has...faster to slower some more suited for other applications some general purpose in right proportions?

    Some projos need a wad, some don't? Why and why not? In smokeless cases the bullet is right on the powder why does black powder need a wad?

    My goal is to just cross the finish line this year with a workable load to kill a deer at under 50 yards...nothing fancy needed and it doesn't have to be a lightning bolt. 50 cal wouldn't even have to expand I'm guessing as long as I push it through the boiler room that'd do the trick...

    Any suggestions for a mold? Lee makes a few pretty in expensive and I've had good luck with their molds for rifle...what about their R.E.A.L. mold? Should I get a mini mold instead?

    What accuracy should I expect...or want? Load suggestions? I have roughly 6 weeks to figure this all out which seems like enough just not an over abundance... privative season reopens (or actually remains open after firearm season ends) Jan 8...

    Scattered thoughts and I'm sorry just firing them off as they come across my mind

    Any guidance to resources threads or tutorials would be appreciated!!



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    Last edited by John McCorkle; 11-24-2018 at 08:38 PM.

  2. #2
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    For real black powder the different grades are grain size. X=Cannon, 2X= Musket, 3X= Rifle / Pistol, 4X=Flash Powder for flintlock flash pan. That being said depending on the individual gun and caliber some loads will cross over from 2-3X and back. For your .50 I would suggest starting with 3X. The wad or patch serves to grab the rifling in the barrel. This makes loading easier and keeps the fouling soft. I have had good luck with Lyman’s Maxiball and Maxihunter. If you cast them must be 100% pure lead. For accuracy it depends on the time you spend working up you load. From a rest start at 70 grains fire three shot group and increase charge by 10. You will notice your groups getting smaller until the group expands. At that point drop back 5grains and try again. That will give you your load for that rifle, bullet combo. Oh almost forgot after every shot clean your bore. Also black powder and Pyrodex are measured by volume NOT weight so you need a black powder measure


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  3. #3
    Boolit Buddy

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    Forgot to say no patching with maxiball or maxihunter They have a a slightly larger and that engraved on the rifling when loaded


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  4. #4
    Boolit Grand Master Good Cheer's Avatar
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    A 350 grainer Lee REAL mold would be my first try.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master arcticap's Avatar
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    Wads are used to help stop hot gases from blowing by the projectile through the rifling grooves.
    Sometimes they improve accuracy and help to obtain more consistent results and sometimes they don't.

    The Remington Genesis is the same rifle as the Traditions Yukon.
    A small percentage of those rifles are known to have some potential quirks.
    For instance, you may need to run a wet Q-tip on the face of the breech block to remove fouling if it begins to stick from accumulated powder residue.
    One very accurate load someone discovered was a 350 grain Keith .430 bullet with a Harvester green sabot and 105 grains of Pyrodex RS.--->>> https://www.huntingnet.com/forum/bla...e-bullets.html

    Yukon Owner's Manual--->>> https://www.traditionsfirearms.com/d...1406058430.pdf

    There's some threads with good information about both the Genesis and the Yukon on the Hunting dot Net black powder forum. These are the search results for the Genesis--->>> https://www.huntingnet.com/forum/sea...archid=2857604

    Every rifle is different and while some may shoot bore size conicals well enough, a person can also cast a bullet of their choice for shooting with a sabot.--->>> https://www.huntingnet.com/forum/4163209-post7.html

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
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    My .50 cal has the deeper grooves meant for a patched ball, but has the 1:48” twist which can handle conicals as well. Bought some cast 320 grn REALs and read that a felt wad was often needed. I tried 70 grns of powder and no wad and found the conical had keyholed at 50 yds and was a foot left and several inches low. The next two I tried with a wad and they were nearly touching and just below the bull.

  7. #7
    Boolit Grand Master pietro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John McCorkle View Post

    Found the forum for paper patch black powder but not much on muzzleloader...

    Stopped by the local gas station/general store at my home town over Thanksgiving where I bought a Remington Genesis for a song...(30 bucks)

    It's 50 cal - and of course id like to cast for it....I have cast for smokeless cartridges for all my reloading...but I have zero idea about muzzleloader...

    I know black powder is much faster than smokeless... smokeless and black are not substitution for one another....

    I don't understand what f, ff, or fff are (I'm guessing grades of fineness?) -

    [Correct -generally: fg/1F = cannons; ffg/2F) = .50cal/up; fffg/3F = .50cal/under. ]



    Why do black powders seem to be loaded with a bucket load of grease ? - [it's part of the production process.]

    I'm assuming there are a thousand shades of burn rates and profiles of burn just as smokeless has...faster to slower some more suited for other applications some general purpose in right proportions? - [Correct - see answer above.]



    Some projos need a wad, some don't? Why and why not? In smokeless cases the bullet is right on the powder why does black powder need a wad?

    [It's not projectiles that need an over powder wad, it's more the gun. Smoothbores need a wad, but most front stuffing pistols, revolvers & rifles do not, since the proper boolitt O.D. should be large enough to shave a ring of lead (C&B revolvers) or to engrave the rifling on the boolitt during loading, but not so big that they are difficult to load. Minie balls are under bore size, as they are designed with a thin skirt that expands upon ignition. However, this is America, and if you want to use a wad, go to it.]



    My goal is to just cross the finish line this year with a workable load to kill a deer at under 50 yards...nothing fancy needed and it doesn't have to be a lightning bolt. 50 cal wouldn't even have to expand I'm guessing as long as I push it through the boiler room that'd do the trick...

    [For a .50cal, 90-150 grains (scoop volume, not weight) of FFg/2F will usually suffice - try different loads to determine which load shoots good w/o beating you to death.]



    Welcome to the forum !

    I hope the above helps you out.
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  8. #8
    Boolit Grand Master

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    And to answer another of your questions - Black powder is about 46%-48% efficient. All that lube is to soften the residue - over 50% of what you put in your barrel - so it is soft enough to be moved. BTW - all that smoke is part of that >50% that doesn't burn.
    Wayne the Shrink

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  9. #9
    Boolit Master
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    Looks like the specs show it has a 1:28 rifling...which makes no sense to my rifle brain used to 1:12 or 1:10 in 30 06 (or 1:7/8 in 300 blk) but apparently that is pretty fast in 50 cal muzzleloaders

    Does this limit what I can and can't shoot? I mean I imagine it does but what does that mean practically? Round balls patched ok? Conicals? Both? Neither?

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  10. #10
    Boolit Master arcticap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John McCorkle View Post
    Looks like the specs show it has a 1:28 rifling...which makes no sense to my rifle brain used to 1:12 or 1:10 in 30 06 (or 1:7/8 in 300 blk) but apparently that is pretty fast in 50 cal muzzleloaders

    Does this limit what I can and can't shoot? I mean I imagine it does but what does that mean practically? Round balls patched ok? Conicals? Both? Neither?
    That's a relatively fast twist for a .50 muzzle loader which pretty much limits a person to shooting conicals with hunting loads.

    Patched balls can often strip the rifling if pushed too fast.
    Hornady does make a sabot with .480 round ball called a "hard ball" that might work with a fast twist.
    But I don't recall reading much of any feedback about them.
    The sabot may help the ball to not strip the rifling when pushed at a higher hunting velocity.
    Balls are something that need to be experimented with since muzzle loaders can sometimes contain surprises.
    Perhaps a patched round ball would work from an archery tree stand distance.
    If you can come up with a consistent combination of patch & ball, then it would first need to be proven on the range and then in the field so that a person doesn't waste their effort when it comes to crunch time and the deer is lost.

    Fast twist rates are primarily intended for shooting sabots with bullets and for shooting bore size conicals.
    The intended projectiles aren't much different than those designed for a rifled shotgun barrel, often encased in plastic.
    Last edited by arcticap; 11-25-2018 at 06:37 PM.

  11. #11
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    1/28 It’s way to fast for round ball but my traditions shoot patched round ball decent. It’s designed to shoot the long lee real or the sabot bullets. I have shot the reals with 50 gr to 100 gr powder black or pyrodex. I tried 120 gr and accuracy went downhill and kicks way to much. Lyman Maxy also shoots good in my gun. I never tried using wads because my groups where good at 100 yards. The lee target mini and the regular mini shoot also very good. I got the lighter waight lee real mold in 50 cal but haven’t shot it yet. I thank the reason why I had good results with a round ball in a fast twist is because I kept the charge low 40 and 50 to 60 gr. I use 2 f or 3 f in my 50 cal triple f in my 36 cal.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master
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    Most muzzle loaders killed deer with a 40 to 60 gr max charge years ago .most 50 to 60 gr charge was a compleat pass through with a round ball. The only thing the 150 gr load does is extend range with the heavy long bullet. In the civil war it was recorded that a mini bullet fired at 700 yards with I thank a 65 gr charge of 1 1/2 or 2 f would compleatly pass through a Calvery horse long ways from front to back. I still thank the 100 gr charge is more than enuf. I tried the 120 to 150 gr charge and always went back to 50 gr for plinking to 80 to 100 for hunting. Just try different loads and see what shoots good

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jniedbalski View Post
    1/28 It’s way to fast for round ball but my traditions shoot patched round ball decent. It’s designed to shoot the long lee real or the sabot bullets. I have shot the reals with 50 gr to 100 gr powder black or pyrodex. I tried 120 gr and accuracy went downhill and kicks way to much. Lyman Maxy also shoots good in my gun. I never tried using wads because my groups where good at 100 yards. The lee target mini and the regular mini shoot also very good. I got the lighter waight lee real mold in 50 cal but haven’t shot it yet. I thank the reason why I had good results with a round ball in a fast twist is because I kept the charge low 40 and 50 to 60 gr. I use 2 f or 3 f in my 50 cal triple f in my 36 cal.
    Bearing surface on that real bullet looks fairly small, would it have enough to grip on a fast twist rifle? I'm happy to keep the powder charge low...have no business shooting that far anyways with a muzzleloader

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  14. #14
    Boolit Grand Master pietro's Avatar
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    .

    A 1:28" twist rate is standard for frontstuffers designed to shoot saboted boolitts.

    PRB's (patched round balls) work best with a twist rate from 1:50" to 1:70".

    Many frontstuffers are made with a 1:48" twist, which is a compromise between the PRB & Conical twist rates, shooting both "OK", but neither optimally.


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  15. #15
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by pietro View Post
    .

    A 1:28" twist rate is standard for frontstuffers designed to shoot saboted boolitts.

    PRB's (patched round balls) work best with a twist rate from 1:50" to 1:70".

    Many frontstuffers are made with a 1:48" twist, which is a compromise between the PRB & Conical twist rates, shooting both "OK", but neither optimally.


    .
    Is there a cast boolits type/size that will work well with that fast of a twist? I'm guessing the same general rule apply for muzzleloader as for smokeless with barrel twist (longer the projo the faster twist that is required)?

    From what I can tell the bearing surface is too small and lead too soft to grip and hold the rifling for round balls to be pushed fast enough to hunt with? What about low velocity loads for round balls ?

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  16. #16
    Boolit Man
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    use a 430 diameter bullet I cast a 300 gr 44 i put in a green sabot with 80 gr of tripple seven powder do all you want easys to clean and deadly
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  17. #17
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    My Lyman GPH has a 1:32 twist. The Lyman and your Rem are designed for sabot bullets but full bore bullets will also work as well. Your twist rate will stabilize bullets that are 'medium' weight (400-500gn).

    I shoot paper patched most of the time, 450gn slicks from Buffalo Arms. I don't consider it to be a good group unless it is less than 2" at 100yd and get some smaller if I do my part.

    When I don't want to mess with the paper I will go to Hornady Great Plains bullets (I think Lyman has a mold for them).

    For both of these I size them to bore dia (in my case that is .502). Load powder, veggie card wad and lubed felt wad. The wads keep the powder from flowing past the bullet before it upsets into the grooves. I used 80gn of Pyrodex Select for the 450gn and 100gn for the Hornady's.

    The Hornady/Lyman bullet are made to be used without a wad. They have two bore size bands and a groove size band that engages on loading (like the Lee REAL). As mentioned the Lee REAL is a decent one to start with.

    You might also try the Lee .500S&W bullet mold. A few folks in here have had good luck with them, greased and paper patched (see the sticky thread on paper patching). Using the card and veggie wad is kind of a replacement for the gas check design.

    Yes, you can use a patched round ball. Start with lower loads, 30 or 40gn, and work up from there until you get the accuracy you want. You will have to be more selective about patch and ball sizes. You have shallow grooves so a thinner patch might work better than thicker. Mine does OK with a .490 ball and .015 patch. This is 4 or 5" at 100yd kind of shooting at moderate velocity (40gn of powder in mine). Not what I would use for hunting.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by charlie b View Post
    My Lyman GPH has a 1:32 twist. The Lyman and your Rem are designed for sabot bullets but full bore bullets will also work as well. Your twist rate will stabilize bullets that are 'medium' weight (400-500gn).

    I shoot paper patched most of the time, 450gn slicks from Buffalo Arms. I don't consider it to be a good group unless it is less than 2" at 100yd and get some smaller if I do my part.

    When I don't want to mess with the paper I will go to Hornady Great Plains bullets (I think Lyman has a mold for them).

    For both of these I size them to bore dia (in my case that is .502). Load powder, veggie card wad and lubed felt wad. The wads keep the powder from flowing past the bullet before it upsets into the grooves. I used 80gn of Pyrodex Select for the 450gn and 100gn for the Hornady's.

    The Hornady/Lyman bullet are made to be used without a wad. They have two bore size bands and a groove size band that engages on loading (like the Lee REAL). As mentioned the Lee REAL is a decent one to start with.

    You might also try the Lee .500S&W bullet mold. A few folks in here have had good luck with them, greased and paper patched (see the sticky thread on paper patching). Using the card and veggie wad is kind of a replacement for the gas check design.

    Yes, you can use a patched round ball. Start with lower loads, 30 or 40gn, and work up from there until you get the accuracy you want. You will have to be more selective about patch and ball sizes. You have shallow grooves so a thinner patch might work better than thicker. Mine does OK with a .490 ball and .015 patch. This is 4 or 5" at 100yd kind of shooting at moderate velocity (40gn of powder in mine). Not what I would use for hunting.
    This is super helpful thank you!

    I'll check out the Lyman but Lee makes a real/rb combo mold...round balls may give me a chance to get used to the firearm and play with lower charges while the 320 grain could likely take a deer.

    I guess the easiest option is to go with one of those great plains bullets or saboted round of some variety...not opposed to it - the tinkerer in me always comes back to anything I can diy I should while the pragmatist in me says just go with what is realistic....

    You say Lyman makes a mold for a bullet much like the Hornady great plains?

    Ultimately i think paper patching is a great option for me but a bit much to try and bite off and get decent results in just a month before taking aim at game...maybe for next season

    Again thank you

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  19. #19
    Boolit Grand Master pietro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John McCorkle View Post

    Is there a cast boolits type/size that will work well with that fast of a twist ?

    [Yes, and there are also empty .50cal sabots available that accept .45cal boolitts, cast or j-word ]



    I'm guessing the same general rule apply for muzzleloader as for smokeless with barrel twist (longer the projo the faster twist that is required)?

    [ Partially, but the boolitt weight comes into play also]



    From what I can tell the bearing surface is too small and lead too soft to grip and hold the rifling for round balls to be pushed fast enough to hunt with ?

    [ the proper use of round balls is to wrap the rearward 3/4 with a patch (usually cloth), why they are referred to as PRB's (patched round balls). The hunting usage varies upon the game pursued and the diameter of the PRB. Only pure lead PRB's should be used, not an alloy - and many a .50cal PRB has long been used on larger game like deer, blackbear, and others you might find surprising.]



    What about low velocity loads for round balls ?

    [PRB's can be loaded to the velocity of your choice, like for hunting, or (optionally) for target shooting. The differences lie in different POI's, and energy (both muzzle energy & buttplate energy ) ]


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  20. #20
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    This is probably heresy to many of the traditionalists but since you already cast boolits for your smokeless powder handguns, you probably already have molds for 40, 44, and/or 45 calibers. While I shoot traditional patched round ball for deer, I have one side-lock rifle with a 1/28 twist (a T/C White Mtn. carbine) that shoots like a house afire with sabots and 429 caliber 255 gr semi wadcutters. It is my long range, deer/elk rifle. It routinely shoots 2 MOA at 100 yards with my iron sights (scopes not legal here). The load has always been 78 gr of 3F but recently I have had excellent results with the new BlackMZ blackpowder substitute from Allianz Powder in the same volume as the 3F. The BlackMZ powder will certainly be easier to find than traditional black if your neighborhood is like mine. If you investigate sabot+pistol boolits, my best results have been loading the boolit+sabot then greasing the bore heavily with a greased patch with one of the commercial muzzleloader bullet lubes. That might be your easiest way to get started and, who knows you might like it. That load and that sabot+pistol bullet has taken many deer and a few elk for me. Sabots can be found in 50 cal. for all three pistol calibers (color coded green for 429, black for 452, and ? for 400). Good luck and have fun. Muzzleloading can be addictive.
    Last edited by quilbilly; 12-01-2018 at 06:39 PM.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check