Have you fired it yet? Just feed it one at a time by hand and see how accurate it is. Also does it extract and eject, to check the action spring weight?
Pics please
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Have you fired it yet? Just feed it one at a time by hand and see how accurate it is. Also does it extract and eject, to check the action spring weight?
Pics please
John Taylor reported he had test fired my Bolt-Receiver-Barrel set on his Grip Frame and it did Extract and Eject properly.Originally Posted by lar45
Have you fired it yet? Just feed it one at a time by hand and see how accurate it is. Also does it extract and eject, to check the action spring weight?
Pics please
I have yet to Fire it on my Grip frame.
My Local Gun Shop gunsmith warned me tha ta threaded muzzle might make the assembled Pistol an "Assault Weapon" according to California Laws so I am going to machine off the Muzzle threads BEFORE assembling my pistol.
Thankfully, I was informed of the Possible law problem in time to avoid an expensive Legal Problem.
I plan to do the machine work this weekend if my Friend's Lathe is Available for use.
Of course This means I will have a 'white metal' tip on my Barrel for a time and the John Taylor made threaded Crown protector/cleaning guide will be unusable.
I guess I will probably make a 'Delrin' plastic Crown Protector to slip on the Muzzle later.
Photos Will eventually Be taken, and I hope Posted sometime in the future.
I had been Using "Photobucket"; but they seem to have changed the "rules " on me.
Chev. William
This gunbroker auction has a photo of a magazine that as made up for a .32s&W olympic pistol. https://www.gunbroker.com/Item/791629148
WOW! That IS a Very Interesting Conversion! I wonder how they Fitted ".32 S&W Long" cartridges into that 'short' (.22LR Length) magazine well? It looks like they used a MKI magazine Base closure on the converted Magazine.
Also the Mass added to the Bolt is very Interesting.
Thank you for sharing that link.
Chev. William
Looking down the magwell of my Colt .22 (the High Standard is buried in the safe), and no Ruger to look at; perhaps they were able to mill out the magazine well?
Maybe even just file clearance since it would be a one of. Undoubtedly it was set up for .32 S&WL wadcutters, probably flush seated similar to the S&W Model 52 in .38 Special.
Robert
I have always wondered why there wasn't somebody making a Ruger type design in center fire. Because it is straight blow back there would be restrictions on power of cartridge. Of all the new cals that have come out, no company seems to want to cater to hunters. You would think a 25 or up to
32 cal rimless cartridge would have a good market. A good small game and varmit pistol would be
useful with the added benifit of reloading. It's the same thing in revolvers, every make is making bear guns and monster magnums. The niche that is not filled is some small bores that could be reloaded.
First: I agree it appears that the Ruger "Standard Auto" .22LR pistol design is convertible to Center Fire operation and to cartridges of at least .32 Auto Colt Pistol semi-rimmed size.
I note That the Link provided in Post#23 above is for a Ruger conversion pistol in ".32S&W Long" that was used in competition shooting.
It appears that Added Mass was needed to handle the energy of the Cartridge as a Blowback operating design (looks like about two receiver diameters of added Mass in a round slug was added to the end of the bolt).
Second: the .25ACP and .32ACP cartridges are Both Semi-Rimmed designs.
The .22 Ladybug and Ladybug-Repeater are functionally Rimmed cartridge designs.
Third: Development of All three of the above 'pistol' cartridges (.22L-R, .25ACP, .32ACP) should be done in 24" long test Barrels like the .22LR RF cartridge is now.
Fourth: the rated Pressures for the 'new' cartridges should be at least up to 25,000psi MAP Pmax (Piezio) and even up to 50,000psi for Rifle use if each pressure level were labeled as such for 'modern' firearms use, not 'de-tuned' to what lawyers feel is suitable for Century Plus old firearms.
Fifth: bullet weights available should range from 20 to 70 grains in .22 cartridges;
35 to 74 grains in .25 Auto Cartridges; and 50 to 120 grains in .32 Auto cartridges. I believe these will give a vary wide performance choice area to give the shooter what they will like for various uses and ranges.
The Light end bullets loaded to subsonic velocities would be useful for pest control in a more urban environment
Middle weights at moderate to high velocity would be good for hunting and Target shooting at 100 yards or so.
Heavy bullets would stop predators if loaded to the Maximum allowable MAP.
Just my thinking on the subject, feel free to comment.
Chev. William
Last edited by Chev. William; 12-15-2018 at 08:23 PM. Reason: Correction and added information.
A rimless 25 case/ cartridge that was extended to max length without frame change would be a fairly
cheap retool. Firing pin, extractor , magazine and barrel. Added mass for bolt....and talk ammo co.
into making brass.
Making a ".25" such as the .25ACP into a rimless design would require the Extractor clearance cut to be 'deeper' reducing the Primer pocket wall thickness and therefore requiring the Head to be made harder to withstand the forces trying to expand the primer pocket during cartridge discharge.
John M. Browning's development work on both the .25ACP and .32ACP gave us the Semi-Rimmed designs we have now.
It seems he found a 'Sweet spot' that allows good strength without extreme hardness and its ensuing brittle failure modes.
.38 auto, and larger Auto cartridges, has enough added "Meat" around the Primer pocket so that a Rimless design is comfortably used without primer pocket stretching under chamber Pressure.
The .25 Auto cartridge rim can be rediuced in diameter without deepening the Extractor clearance cut but extraction problems will increase, reducing functionality and usefulness in a 'Self Defense' situation.
The current Extractor Clearance Cut diameter is roughly the same as the SAAMI nominal Groove diameter of the Cartridge and the Cartridge uses small Primers of .175" diameter. This means the Result is .250 -.175= .075"/2 = .0375" wall around the Primer pocket in the case.
Would you like a Thinner wall?
Chev. William
The Ruger bolt is not terribly heavy, and it is primarily bolt weight that limits the ceiling of the power that can be applied. I would pass on a 32 ACP even if I could get it to fit or work and I would limit the 50 grain 25 ACP to about 1000 fps from a 5.5 inch barrel to not also greatly exceed the momentum imparted to the bolt by a 22 Long rifle
High velocity 22s reach around the 1100 fps range in 40 grain weight from a 5.5 Ruger. This scores a 44 for the long rifle and a 50 for the 25 ACP when so prescribed in terms of shorthand momentum. A 32 ACP at achievable velocities would be vastly beyond that, on the order of 71 to 80 or higher.
A 98 grain 32 Long wadcutter at target speed scores a 74 which is why the experimental gun mentioned above got a heavier bolt. If bolt weight is not greatly increased a 32 ACP is not a sound conversion. Even then the increased force transferred to the stop pin and associated areas upon impact of a heavier higher momentum bolt must be considered rather than early bolt movement causing “too soon” bolt motion alone.
I would be rather doubtful about nearly doubling impact momentum on a design originally intended for 22 Long rifle alone. A beefed up bolt does not mitigate high momentum and associated impact, but rather only bolt velocity.
Last edited by 35remington; 12-16-2018 at 02:08 PM.
RE: Bolt Mass for .32 Auto Conversion ideas (NOT Mine!):
I suspect the referenced Conversion was made using steel for the added Mass.
Current aerospace techniques might allow use of a Pure Tungsten Slug for the added Mass.
Considerations of the Bolt 'Stop' at rearward end of Travel is important as well as the 'recoil spring' force per inch of compression And its closed, solid, coil length versus the space allocate for it in the action.
From my cursory inspection of the Bolt assembly, it appears to have its rearward travel limited by the remaining metal at the bottom of the firing pin slot rearward end and would compress the firing pin to its most forward travel limit via the vertical pin holding the Receiver in the Grip frame channel. The pin is supported by the Receiver 'tube; walls, at its top and bottom penetrations of the receiver. If the ID is about 3/4" and the OD is about 1" the walls are about 1/8" each. It seems the Contact point for the Bolt to pin is at the lower Receiver Wall end but displaced upward away from the receiver wall due to bolt bottom machined contour for the Hammer Cocking edge and cartridge feed ledge.
I surmise that the Pin is loaded in 'bending' due to this displaced contact position instead of loading in 'shear'. As such the pin's 'spring characteristics' need to be addressed also.
I note also that the forward face of this vertical locking pin is machined flat to spread the Striking energy over a larger surface area.
For my conversion to .25ACP use:
Bolt face force difference between .22LR and .25ACP are about 13.2% larger, and may be within the limits of compensation via recoil spring strength; without resorting to adding mass to the bolt.
So far only the single test discharge by John Taylor has been fired using a .25ACP cartridge of unknown manufacture or MAP Pmax as John did not mention the Cartridge's providence.
My own future testing will be using a lot of Fiocchi 25ACP that they State is loaded to 800fps from a 2" long barrel under CIP Legal Standards. I guess My 8" long barrel will increase that MV by at least 100fps, if not 150fps., to the 900 to 1050fps range.
Chronograph testing will need to wait until I can get a day at an outdoor range to set up and do the testing.
My Personal Standard Comparison 'standard' is a lot of Privi Partisan .25ACP that they listed as having 775fps out of a 6" test Barrel.
Out of a Revolver with a 10-5/8" barrel this lot chronographed at about 2.1% low, possibly due to the 'venting' at the Cylinder to Barrel Gap.
Chev. William
Last edited by Chev. William; 01-24-2019 at 12:22 AM.
No quarrel with the 25 ACP idea. Sounds like great fun. I would be delighted with such a pistol if it worked reliably.
Heavier bolt or not, a 32 ACP and the forces it transmits rearward give me reason to think a conversion to that caliber is much less sound as a practical application. I want a gun I spend a lot of money on to last for a lot of shooting. Finding room for an adequate spring would also be needlessly daunting, I would think.
I doubt a conversion to 32 ACP would meet the criteria for a long lasting gun.
380 Auto's been made in blowback pistols as well, just a thought.
Chev. William - I'm wondering how much such a conversion'd cost to make, past the cost of the Ruger Mk II, any idea?
As to the Costs:
Near the End of July/beginning of August I purchased A used Ruger Standard Auto MKII Pistol for about $300, including Transfer fees And Taxes.
I had a Remanent LW .25ACP barrel blank (about $100 value) left over from machining my 10-5/8" revolver barrel.
John Taylor estimated about $150 to Machine and fit the Barrel.
He also did the Bolt conversion including machining a new Firing Pin, Blue finishing the Parts and some other work for about $432 total;
so I guess the Bolt, firing pin, and finishing was the added $282.
I will need To make magazines for .25ACP to fit the Ruger Grip Frame Magazine Well; probably 'cut and Weld' two Beretta '950' .25ACP together to make one long enough; Estimate about $50 in parts and Welding.
My "Putter time' is not included in these estimates.
Chev. William
Last edited by Chev. William; 01-24-2019 at 12:27 AM.
Blowback 380 slides are much heavier than Ruger rimfire pistol bolts, and the pistols absorb slide frame impact differently. They also have room for much heavier and bigger springs. Food for thought.
Finally, Photos:
The Modified Bolt Face. Note the enlarged Rim rebate to fit the .25ACP rim and the Centered round firing pin tip.
The top view of the Bolt with recoil assembly removed to show the new firing pin in its channel.
Left side of Modified MKII pistol with its new ~8" Barrel.
Right side of Modified MKII pistol wiht its ~8" long Barrel.
These Photos were taken by my Friend with a Camera that has a "Macro" Photo Capability.
Chev. William
Last edited by Chev. William; 12-17-2018 at 12:52 AM.
Chev. William - OK - Thanks, was just wondering on cost. Not free but should be lots of FUN!
The Earlier Link to a .32 Converted Ruger Auto mentioned that it was an estate find from a Competition shooter who had it made for Olympic Competitions.
As I understand the Current Rules of that competition, it requires three pistols:
1. a .22 RF handgun;
2. any Centerfire Handgun of .32 Caliber or larger; and
3. a Handgun of .38 cal or larger.
Prior to 1936 the Rules for the number two handgun did NOT state '.32 caliber or larger'; so in 1935 Col. Askins competed with a Custom .22 Centerfire Automatic and WON the championship that year. The Cartridge he used was the "221 Askins" that he made from "5.5 Velodog" cases and fired in a custom modified Colt Woodsman pistol.
Chev. William
Last edited by Chev. William; 12-25-2018 at 03:00 PM.
Yep. Got all that. Still think a 32 ACP is beyond what is prudent.
Here’s hoping your 25 functions and shoots as you desire for a long time. It may qualify as the world’s most accurate 25 ACP pistol if done right.
This Morning, on the Celebrated Anniversary Day of the Birth of Jesus of Nazareth in Bethlehem, I wish all my Family, My Friends, and My Acquaintances a Very Happy and Merry Christmas.
A solid Tungsten mass added to the Hard Alloy Steel of the Ruger Bolt, plus a Stronger recoil spring is a reasonable way to "Tune" a Pure Blow-back Action, like the Ruger Standard Auto Pistol's, to handle the greater breech face thrust of the .32 Cartridge employed.
Physical space within the Ruger grip frame does limit the extreme length and diameter of the cartridge that can be fitted in an enclosing removable magazine so, say a .327 Fed. Mag. will not fit; yet a slightly smaller one, such as a .32 Colt Long might be made to fit especially if it is loaded with 'wad-cutter' bullets flush with the case mouth. Similarly, a .32 Colt Short loaded with round nosed bullets might be made to fit and be loaded 'hot' to obtain similar to the ballistics of the .32 Long in a Target pistol length barrel.
It seems at least ONE Olympics Class Competitor did do that successfully.
These are Just my personal Opinions; so your may vary.
Chuckling,
Chev. William
Last edited by Chev. William; 01-24-2019 at 12:31 AM.
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