S&W 32-1 38 S&W Terrier and Seating Depth

[JeffG]

Just found a nice little 38S&W yesterday at the gun show and have dies and brass on the way. I’m using NOE 360-158-SWC (H&G51 clone) and their 360-155-WC in my 38 Specials. These both seem like they would be good choices for this round but i’m a little concerned about seating depth. Would you be inclined to seat these to the standard crimp groove or seat them long? I have no intention to try hot rodding these. Just a safe steel plinking round. I’ll like start at 2.5 of Unique and see what that feels like and chrony it. Have a great day.

[Outpost75]

158 SWCs designed for the .38 Special when crimped into the normal crimp groove intrude too deeply into the powder space. Much better to seat the bullet out to about 1.20-1.25" cartridge OAL and crimp in the lube groove. OR get one of the Accurate molds which are correctly dimensioned for the .38 S&W.

My S&W 32-1 Terrier shoots to the sights with the Accurate 36-176P and 2.5 grains of Bullseye for 630 fps from the 2" barrel. Accurate 36-159H also shoots well with the same charge for 650 fps. I load the bullets as-cast and unsized from air cooled wheelweights at .362" and lube with 45-45-10.

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[JeffG]

Thank you sir. Good idea. I’ll play with it when the brass and dies show up this week.

[Green Frog]

Outpost75, thanks for the detailed loading that you posted for a Terrier! My little pre-War Terrier spends most of its time languishing in the safe due to the difficulties and expense of keeping it fed! I've got a bunch of brass and a set of dies for it, but needed the encouragement of seeing a proven reload to start with. For whatever reason, I'm a bit prejudiced against the looks of that fat nosed 36-176P, but the 36-159H just "looks right" to me! Do you know of a big round nose mould that replicates the military 38-200 round our British cousins used to use?

Regards,
Froggie

[Outpost75]

Outpost75, thanks for the detailed loading that you posted for a Terrier! My little pre-War Terrier spends most of its time languishing in the safe due to the difficulties and expense of keeping it fed! I've got a bunch of brass and a set of dies for it, but needed the encouragement of seeing a proven reload to start with. For whatever reason, I'm a bit prejudiced against the looks of that fat nosed 36-176P, but the 36-159H just "looks right" to me! Do you know of a big round nose mould that replicates the military 38-200 round our British cousins used to use? Regards, Froggie

I experimented with the British Mk1 bullets from Matt's Bullets, but accuracy was not as good as I'd hoped for.

So instead I went with an Accurate design for .38 S&W 36-190T which has a long nose, short seating depth and large meplat. It weighs 190 grains from wheelweights and 195 grains with softer 1:40 tin-lead alloy. I found it stable from the revolvers down to 500 fps with 1.7 grains of Bullseye and shoots to the sights of my Colt Police Positive 2-1/2" (1937) originally set up for the 200-grain Super Police Load, as well as in my Aussie S&W Victory and Ruger India model, which were zeroed for Mk2z ammunition. Velocity is impressive with the max. load of 2.5 grains of Bullseye, considering the bullet weight. This load is fine in my postwar 32-1 and the Ruger, but I would treat it like +P in the Victory model and Colts, limited to carry use and not casual plinking.

Heavy Bullet .38 S&W Hand Loads Fired in Revolver And Rook Rifle

Firearm__________S&W 32-1___ S&W Reg.Pol.____S&W Victory___Rook Rifle
Barrel length_________2”_________4”_____________5”_______ ____20”
Cyl. Gap___________0.005______.005___________.009______ ___Solid bbl.

Accurate 36-190T

1.7 Bullseye________485, 9_____545, 15_______496, 18______560, 23 Min. to Exit Barrel
2.1 Bullseye________547, 15____630, 16_______572, 15______681, 10 Approximates Super Police
3.0 AutoComp______668, 4_____732, 15_______674, 20______825, 16 Do Not Exceed
2.5 Bullseye________645, 10____686, 5________704, 8_______800, 11 Do Not Exceed 

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[Green Frog]

If the Accurate 36-190T bullet weren't so homely looking...

So anyway, I'm going to guess that I should stick with a reduced load of Bullseye in loads destined for my little pre-War I-frame Terrier, huh? Would 2.1 grains be a safe and reasonable load for that application?

Froggie

[Outpost75]

The 2.1 Bullseye is safe in your Terrier, about 16,000.

It exceeds Lyman's published max. 1.6 with #358430, at 1.175" OAL, which is 10,500 for topbreaks.

2.0 TiteGroup or 2.5 Unique also OK.

[Larry Gibson]

From an earlier posting, perhaps the information will be useful.

38 S&W Pressure Tests

Earlier in this thread I offered to test some of the loads mentioned for pressure to determine what level of safety there was for the different strength of revolvers made for the 38 S&W cartridge. Ed Harris graciously sent me some bullets and the data for several test loads. I also had on hand three 38 S&W factory loads plus my own 38 S&W load I use in my Harrington & Richardson revolver.

The test handgun is a TC Contender with a 7.94” long 357 magnum barrel. The bore is .347 and the groove is .357. A strain gauge is attached over the center of the chamber (as per SAAMI specifications). With a 38 S&W cartridge chambered the gauge is over the case just below the base of a factory seated bullet. The strain gauge is attached to an Oehler M43 PBL that is interfaced with a laptop computer which has the software. As you will note on the Oehler data sheets there is considerable data input on the conditions, test firearm and load information prior to testing. Each strain gauge is calibrated by the manufacturer and that is also input. I also use factory ammunition as a “reference”. Before each test the M43 runs a check on the gauge to ensure all is correct. A test cannot be done if that test is not correct.

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The Contender has a 2.5X scope mounted and with quality 357 cast loads will put 10 shots into one raged hole less than 1” ctc at 25 yards. However, with the shorter 38 S&W cartridge the bullet exits the case it is not supported as it is in a revolver by the cylinder throats before entering the barrel. In the Contender chamber there would be considerable space around the bullet in the longer chamber for probable misalignment before the bullet enters the leade. Previous testing showed accuracy could be quite good and very poor. Since I’m probably the only one shooting any 38 S&W out of a Contender that isn’t a problem those of you with bullets that properly fit your revolvers cylinder throats have. The test groups were cut out and pasted to the Oehler data sheets.

With low pressure loads the M43 PBL will not provide any measurements unless sufficient data is measured. This means any data from such shots will be “lost” including the velocity. To alleviate that problem I also set up a M35P Oehler in tandem with the M43 PBL screens to at least capture the velocity. It also is interesting to compare the measured velocity data. If the M43 PBL doesn’t measure all the shots in a test string the M35P still provides velocity information (generally a lower velocity shot wasn’t measured) for study. An example of that will be shown. The M35P print out is pasted on the Oehler M43 data sheet left of the “shot Data” and “Summary” data.

The start screen for the M43 PBL was at 15’ and at 12.5’ for the M35P. Shooting was done from the bench with a Hoppe’s pistol rest.

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The chamber on the Contender is to minimum specifications for the 357 magnum and most 38 S&W cartridges will not chamber. However, the R-P factory 38 S&W cartridges would chamber very tightly. I had on hand 50 new Starline 38 S&W cases and W-W and R-P 38 S&W fired cases. All of the Starline and most of the fired R-P cases would chamber when FL sized in a steel RCBS 357 FL die. With bullets larger than .358 seated they would not chamber. Thus all the test bullets other than the R-P factory that would chamber were sized .358 or .357. The R-P factory bullets measured .362 in front of the crimp and .354 on the seated bullet diameter. The W-W factory bullets were .350 - .352 on the seated portion. It is no wonder, as you will see, that accuracy was less than stellar out of my H&R with its .362 cylinder throats, .351 bore and .360 groove diameter.

In the following picture we see the bullets used: left to right; R-P factory, W-W factory, Western Lubaloy factory, Ed Harris provided the 36-125T, the 36-155D and the 36-151H and I provided the Lee 356-105-SWC. Also is a picture of the 3 bullets Ed provided loaded and another of the three factory loads. CC! 500 primers were used. A roll crimp was used in the crimp groove of each bullet. All powder charges were weighed individually on a Redding scale.

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The R-P factory load was tested first as the rounds would chamber so it would give a “reference”. Previous chronograph results out of the H&R revolver showed the R-P to give 60 – 100+ fps greater velocity than other factory loads. It also had more powder; 2.2 gr vs 1.7 and 2 gr, than the W-W and Western factory loads. The MAP (Maximum Average Pressure) measured was 16,300 psi. SAAMI MAP for the 38 S&W is 14,500 psi. The SAAMI MAP for the 38 SPL is 17,000 psi and all 38 SPL factory ammunition I have tested (numerous actually) in this barrel fall below that MAP so the psi measurement is correct.

I also pullet bullets of the W-W and Western factory and loaded them and the factory powder charges into sized W-W 38 S&W cases that would chamber. Neither of those two factory loads produced enough psi for a measurement. It takes 5 – 7,000 psi to expand the case to put pressure on the barrel and another few thousand psi for a “strain” on the barrel to be measured. I have measured as low as 9,000 psi with this test barrel with target 38 SPL loads. However, given the expansion ratio and loose fitting bullet in the longer chamber the lowest psi measured during this test was 11,700 psi. Thus the W-W and Western factory loads were all less than 11,700 psi as were any other load that did not measure.

Looking at the time/pressure traces to the uninitiated they can be of concern. Those are quite normal for low psi loads where the powder is not burning that efficiently. A comparison of the average velocities between the M35P and the M43 demonstrate very good consistency. The accuracy of the R-P load was extremely good.

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Ed Harris 1 test is the 36-125T bullet over 3 gr Bullseye (Alliant). That is a short stubby bullet that was presized at .357 and lubed with LLA(?). I feared accuracy would not be that good given the loose fit in the 357 length chamber and was correct. Nine shots went into 2.137” but a flyer (note the oval bullet hole) enlarged the group to 3.2”. The MAP measured 15,300 psi.

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Ed Harris 2 test is the 36-125T bullet over 7.0 gr 2400 (Alliant). It proved to be a very erratic load and the 3.86” group demonstrates that. Obviously there is not enough bullet mass for 2400 to burn efficiently at this low of a load.

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Ed Harris 3 test is the 36-155D over 2.5 gr Bullseye (Alliant). The 36-155D is a very efficient looking bullet. It was presized at .357 and lubed with LLA. This is a very good load demonstrating excellent accuracy potential and a MAP of 16,600 psi which is very close to the R-P factory load. Note the 1st shot was out of the previously 2400 fouled barrel and was out of the remaining 9 shot group. Those 9 shots went into 1.32” which is very good.

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Ed Harris 4 test is the 36-155D over 6.2 gr 2400 (Alliant). Here we see while we may assume accuracy to be good based on 8 shots the 2 high flyers tell us something is amiss. The internal ballistics identify that something; again 2400 at this low of a load is not burning efficiently as indicated by the very large ES figures for velocity and pressure measurements along with the erratic time/pressure curves.

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Ed Harris test 5 is the 36-151H over 2.8 gr Bullseye (Alliant). This is a very consistent load and note that by seeing how the time/pressure traces are smoothing out. Also note the low psi ES’s across the board. Hey, accuracy was pretty good too! The one high shot was the high velocity. The bad news here for the 38 S&W is this load is pushing into 38 SPL+P psi range.

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Ed Harris 6 test is the 36-151H over 6.5 gr 2400 (Alliant). Here again we see the powder beginning to burn efficiently with low psi ES’s and much smoother time/pressure traces. Accuracy was excellent with 9 shots in 1.4:. The lone flyer, shot #9, was an abnormally low velocity. This load had the highest velocity and test MAP at 19,600 psi….definitely into 38 SPL+P range.

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This test is my own 38 S&W load developed for the break open H&R and Iver Johnson revolvers. I use W-W 38 SPL cases trimmed back to 38 S&W length. WSP primers wer used. The bullet is the Lee 356-105-SWC which drop the bullets at .361 with COWWs + 2% tin alloy. I leave them unsized and Lube with LLA. They are loaded over 2.5 gr Bullseye. Out of my H&R hammerless revolver (3 3/16” barrel) they hit point of aim out to 25 yards with very good accuracy. However, for this test so they would chamber in the Contender the bullets were sized .358 and the cases were sized in the 357 steel FL die. As we see from the Oehler M43 data sheet only one of the ten shot test gave sufficient psi to measure. That was shot #4 and the psi was 14,300 psi. The remaining nine shots then had a psi less than the SAAMI MAP for the 38 S&W (14,000 psi). Note, as mentioned earlier, the M35P printout (pasted to left of Shot Data and Summary gives the velocities for each shot. Thus we still have a record of the entire test string. Accuracy was very good with a 1.235” group.

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The last test was to chronograph and test for accuracy the 3 factory loads out of my H&R hammerless revolver. I was quite pleased with the ES and SD of all 3 loads from the revolver. As we see the R-P gave 60 – 100 fps greater velocity. That was as it should be given the higher psi of the R-P load. Accuracy was very poor, consistently poor for all 3 loads actually, which given the undersized factory bullets didn’t surprise me. On the target the R-P bullets are in the lower circle, the W-W in the middle circle and the Western Lubaloys in the top circle. As the velocity increased the point of impact lowered as usual for a revolver.

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And there we have the test results. My only caution is that with the exception of my load which was developed for the break open revolvers to keep under the SAAMI MAP that all the other tested loads, including the R-P factory load, were over the SAMMI MAP for the 38 S&W. A couple test loads were over the SAAMI MAP for the standard 38 SPL. Due caution should be exorcized to use those only in appropriate revolvers which are also chambered for the 38 SPL.

Larry Gibson

[Outpost75]

Thanks Larry!

[JeffG]

Great information gentlemen. Looking forward to playing with this revolver.

[JeffG]

Got in dies and brass by today. I loaded up some with the NOE 360-155-WC seated long with 3 grooves lubed, seating in the second up from the base. I worked up from 2.0 to 2.5 gr W231 that i had a little left of. Very mild compared to 38 Special. The charge was just enough that it mostly stopped sooting the brass. Didn’t check accuracy, just that it dinged the steel. I decided to order that Accurate 36-176P sized .361. Think i’m really going to enjoy shooting this.

[JeffG]

The Accurate 36-176P mold showed up yesterday. Did some heat cycles on the mold then tonight cast about a hundred out of 50/50 with a little tin. Great casting mold like others i have from Accurate and NOE. Ran 10 through a .360 sizer lubed with NRA 50/50 and loaded over 2.0 grains of W231 to start workup.

[datsun40146]

Sorry to revive an old thread. I'm looking into .38 S&W load development for my terrier and found this post. The data would be amazing but all the attachments come back as errors. Is there anyway to rehost the attachments so the data can be shared?

[JWFilips]

The Model 32 S&W in 38 S&W is my wife's CC weapon and she shoots it well at CC range The 2" barrel is not what you call a target pistol
However at what I would call CC distance 5 Yards it is pretty accurate! She practices with a 125 gr TC cast bullet with 2.5 Be
However her CC rounds are the Lee SWC- Soft 158's and near max load of Unique

[Outpost75]

Sorry to revive an old thread. I'm looking into .38 S&W load development for my terrier and found this post. The data would be amazing but all the attachments come back as errors. Is there anyway to rehost the attachments so the data can be shared?

Send me a PM with an email address which can receive several MB of attachments and I can send them to you. I post enough stuff that I must purge attachments after a month or so, as I exceed my quota.

[Wayne Smith]

Would not a link to the previous post be easier?

[Outpost75]

Would not a link to the previous post be easier?

Not if he wants the pictures, because they are no longer on the site.