Forming 357 & 30 Herrett from 375 Winchester

[midnight]

I am going to begin forming the above Herrett cases from 375 Winchester. By the way, Starline has the hard to come by 375 Winchester cases in stock right now. Get them while you can. I would like to have someone who has done it, take me through step by step how they do it. I will be using a chop saw and a Sinclair case trimmer. I have a Hornady die set. I made about thirty 30 Herrett from 30-30 brass but I formed them with the die touching the shellholder so they are probably a little short to headspace on the shoulder. I committed to using 375 Winchester brass because it is stronger brass. I also have a case annealer but it is up at my brother's place which is closed down for the winter while he sails around the Caribean for the winter. Any tips or advice about pitfalls would be appreciated.

Bob

[JSH]

I think you just made a fairly simple wildcat harder. Proper and correct sizing methods for the Herrett cases is what gives good case life. Thicker brass and improper sizing will give you a bit better case life. You may well crumple the 375 brass a bit easier than the 30-30.
I know several friends of mine in years past that got excellent case life with 30-30 brass.
I have played with a few barrels, the factory TC chambers I found no two to be alike.

[country gent]

I have only formed 357 herret brass from 30-30 and 32 win spl. Both necking up to the new case. I have never formed 30 herret but with 30-30 it should be pushing the shoulder back maintaining the same neck size.

Going from 375 win brass down may create some other issues converting brass.
1) sizing down will thicken necks and shoulders
Thick necks can result in bullets not releasing and high pressures result.
Thick shoulders can affect how well the fire form out and seal
2) keeping necks and wall thickness concentric and even will be harder. A good even chamfer may help here
3) With the amount of forming being done ( especially the 30 herrets) annealing will probably be needed at least once if not twice.

My procedure for 357 herrets was to expand neck on a mandrel to .360 . Then size down to form in a properly set sizing die. Trim to length chamfer deburr and fire form with a light to mid range load. Trim again if needed. Load and use. My cases lasted for 8-10 full power loading. Several things I do recommend make sure dies are set correctly for proper headspace when forming, you want a light tension on formed cases closing the action. Check neck wall thickness and loaded round neck dia, If necks thicken you may end up neck turning them. Use new brass. Anneal as needed.

The 357 herret may size down in one step from 375. Im thinking the 30 herret will be 2-3 step downs 1 at .357 2 at 338 and size down to 30 cal in sizing die.

Other things to look for are stronger heavier brass means less capacity over the normal so data may not be right for your cases. Heavier cases don't always seal the chamber as well.

Making these cases from the parent 30-30 case is a fairly easy straight forward one or two pass thru and trim.

[JSH]

^^^^^^^^^^
Reflected my thoughts as well,more in depth than I wanted to get into explaining.
Virgin 30-30 and or other parent cases are not a must, but result in less headaches.
There were some using 225 Winchester brass, good luck finding any of that in any amount for a reasonable price.

[Tatume]

I am going to begin forming the above Herrett cases from 375 Winchester. ... I would like to have someone who has done it, take me through step by step how they do it. I will be using a chop saw and a Sinclair case trimmer. I have a Hornady die set.

The Hornady Series III 30 Herrett die set comes with a hardened trim-to-length die (TTL). I use it, and recommend it. Forming 30 Herrett cases is a bit laborious, but they last a long time.

1. Run a case into the FL die.
2. Run the case into the TTL die. Cut the neck with a hacksaw. Bring the neck down flush to the TTL using a file. Deburr the inside of the neck while in the TTL. Lower the ram and deburr the outside of the case neck. Trim to length in your case trimmer and deburr again.
3. Check the case in your chamber. Since the Herrett will headspace on the rim, you can't be sure if it is too short with this check, but it likely is. Run a slightly larger expander ball into the neck, then resize in the Herrett FL die a little at a time until the case just seats in the chamber. Lock the die, and use this setting for FL sizing operations. You are now set up to form Herrett cases.
4. Repeat steps 1 & 2; skip step 3. FL size the rest of your cases as a batch. Trim the remaining cases as a batch.

I recommend this procedure, and recommend against the chop saw.

[midnight]

I have been looking for file trim dies for both but have yet to find one at a reasonable price. I hadn't thought about creating a second small shoulder on 30-30 cases although it wouldn't be necessary if i backed off the die properly in the first place. For the few cases I have already made, fireforming should move the shoulder forward if I seat bullets to touch the rifling. I'll have to get into my brother's place and get my annealer back.

Bob

[Tatume]

I have been looking for file trim dies for both but have yet to find one at a reasonable price.

The Hornady Series III 30 Herrett die set comes with a hardened trim-to-length die.

Try calling Hornady.

I hadn't thought about creating a second small shoulder on 30-30 cases although it wouldn't be necessary if i backed off the die properly in the first place.

Lock the die, and use this setting for FL sizing operations. You are now set up to form Herrett cases.

I believe this is what I said.

I'll have to get into my brother's place and get my annealer back.

I've never had to anneal new cases to form Herrett cases.

[Tatume]

I have been looking for file trim dies for both but have yet to find one at a reasonable price.

Now I'm looking for trim dies for you, and understand your frustration. The Series III dies have been replaced with the new and improved Series IV dies. For our convenience, the Series IV die set omits the trim die.

However, Lee will make a trim die for you. Go to https://leeprecision.com/ and click Custom Services, then click Custom Quick Trim Die. They do not stock the Herrett dies, but you can click Contact Us and ask to have them made.

[Tatume]

Same information on procedure, nicer presentation:

http://blog.westernpowders.com/2016/...ps-and-tricks/

Also I forgot to mention, I use Imperial Sizing Die Wax. It is the best!

[DocSavage]

I had a 357 Herret barrel ages ago formed cases from 30-30 and 32 Win Spl no 375 Win existed at the time but thought at a later date necking down .020 shouldn't be that tough. Necking down to .308 that's going to be a lot of work and I suspect a lot of mangled brass in the process

[Tatume]

Necking up usually works much better than necking down. That's my take from making 309 JDJ cases.

[rking22]

The Contender cannot stand the pressure (over the long haul) that the 375 brass is (in theory) designed for. The neeking down will also necessitate neck turning/teaming, and 375 brass is even thicker. Use the Money you save on parent brass to get a trim die they make the process much easier. The previously posted forming advice is what most people have arrived at, very good advice.
Careful of some of the old loads, some "magazine article" published loads are frame stretchers! At least on the original Contender, no experience with the Gen 2 frames. IMR published actual pressure tested data in the 80s, thats all I trust with my early frames. That warning about reduced case capacity from using 375 brass makes this situation worse.

[rogerreloader]

If anyone is interested I have 100 30-30 cases made into 30-h that I never got around to shooting. I will trade for pistol brass.

[Kenstone]

I have made 30 Herret out of 225 Winchester brass and had to turn the necks after forming.
I have some 225 cases and 30 Herret cases (made from 225 Win), as well as a Hornady die set/cut off die.

I no longer own a 30 Herret and have no use for any of it though.
Anyone with any interest can PM me.

[bob208]

I have 3 boxes of .357 herret formed from virgin win. .30-30 two in fired one has fired primers in it. would like to find a home for it.

[EDG]

While the operating pressure of the .375 is higher than the .30-30 using new .375 brass is a poor idea.
1. I have used once fired RP and WW to make cases for about 20 years. I pick out only like new once fired brass from indoor ranges that has never been on the ground.
2. The Contender has no business operating at .375 pressure.
3. You complain about the cost of a trim die yet you advocate using new .375 brass to shoot in a Herrett. I have only seen a few good deals on Herrett trim dies in the last 25 years and I bought both. It is just a fact of life. If you troll a gun show a month you might find one in 5 years at a decent price. You will also need an extended .30-30 shell holder because the round is too short to use with a trim die an standard shell holder.
4. WW .375 brass is a little heavier than WW .30-30 brass but not a lot. But WW .375 brass is not any heavier than RP .30-30 brass. And you don"t know how strong or how heavy Starline is. You are just making an assumption. All we really know right now is it will be headstamped .375.

My process
A. I have a Fl set of RCBS dies and a FL set of LEE dies. (.30 Herrett only)
The LEE dies were bought by a friend because they were cheap. When forming a FL .30-30 case the top of the case drags in the top threads of the die. To form cases you have to remove the decapper and clamp nut. Then we cut the cases off several ways.
1. Small tubing cutter
2. Drill powered Forster trimmer
3. Lathe
4. Later I found a Pacific or Hornady trim die and used a hacksaw. Even later I found an RCBS trim die too.
5. After rough trimming the formed case I had to FL size cases formed in the trim die.
6. Because the corners of the neck and shoulder do not form sharp corners the cases get about .010 shorter when fired the first time. Because the .30 Herrett neck is so short I leave my brass as onlg as the chamber which is about .030 longer than spec. When fire formed the case gets about .010 shorter. When resized is gets about .005 back.

After FL sizing the first time or after you fire the first time you need to anneal the cases or some necks will crack.

You can use the brass at this point or you can go into greater detail by going down this rat hole.
30 Herrett are generous in the neck diameter. They ate usually throated about .75 too long for a 110 grain bullet. Some people theorize they can make a Herrett more accurate by using thicker .375 brass. RP 30-30 brass is heavier too but it produces cases that are heavily tapered at the case mouth. I have used them tapered as is, I have neck turned them with both Marquart and Forster neck turners and I have neck reamed them with an RCBS form and reamer die set.
I think I prefer reamed brass but turned cases are ok. Used as is cases worked ok but the necks are a lot more variable in thickness.
Hard cases turn and ream better so anneal after the neck work if you can.
I have a full set of RCBS FL dies, a set of RCBS trim and ream dies with the RCBS reamer. They are a lot of work and produce excellent cases but I would not use .375 brass.
I corresponded with a .30 Herrett fan long ago. He went the route of the .375 brass. I don't think he got any noticeable improvements. One thing he was trying to improve was case life. He was a Xray technician and he xrayed his brass and found pending case head separations. You can avoid some of that by using moderate pressures and precision.
Do not size this case like a rimmed case. Sized it so you control headspace off the shoulder.
If you size it like a rimmed case you will get head separations.
Size your cases so you only have .001 to .002 clearance at the shoulder when locked close. If you do not have the case sized enough the gun will not lock up and will no fire.

[JSH]

IF you have a bandsaw with a fine tooth blade, a jig can be made to rough cut to length out of a piece of oak. Drill appropriate size hole, split length wise, then use a screw and wing nut to clamp them up in. Set the fence for the proper length.
We did this for all of the Herrett and US cartridges. Thought I had my jig but must have repurposed it. The jig held ten cases at a time. Clamping them up and making the jig wide enough so no more than necessary was out, cases cut very nice and pretty clean.

Using range brass, no matter how good it looks or what it was shot out of, is much akin to going to the junkyard looking for tires to drag race with, then complaining you never win. The end product will be no better than what you start with. Use range brass to maybe get a feel for swaging down, but I would not count on it for the long haul.
Spending time energy and effort to make cases is not a small task.
I won't stir the pot, but a lot of the issues folks have with cases not lasting has little to do with pressures causing it. Headspace on the shoulder and you will be fine, headspace on the rim........Bellm is not the final word on sizing for these break action pistols,mbut he does a good job explaining. For the most part, anything you know or think you know about sizing brass and reloading does not completely apply to these.

[Walks]

Now I remember why I gave up on .30H/.357H so many years ago. I just switched to the 7mmTCU & .35REM in 14" barrels. Made life much easier. And a 10" .357MAX if I needed it. Maybe not quite the velocity of the .30H or .357H in the .357MAX. But far fewer headaches. And the 7mmTCU & .35REM out performed both.
And yeah, I know they're longer and heavier. But that's why they made Chest Rigs.

[JSH]

The Herrett's came around because a select few thought pistol powders had to be used in short barrels. I am sure there was some penny pinching in there as well.
When one chambers a conventional or wildcat rifle cartridge into a rig fired as a pistol, I figure economics got tossed out the window from the start.

The 35 Remington is known to cause grief in the TC platform. Misfires and light strikes even from virgin factory brass. All because of generous chambering, or in a reload sizing habits for bolt or lever guns that don't work well on these.

The Herrett's involve a bit more work as far as trimming.
There are those that make the 7TCU into a bigger chore than necessary and size brass improperly for it also. Only to pooh pooh the cartridge because of not understanding.

[lightman]

I form 357 Herretts from once fired 30-30 cases. I run the fired case into the resizing die to neck it up and size it. Then I run it into a trim die and cut it off a little long. Then I trim it to the correct length with a case trimmer. I made a trimmer from a Lee 35 Remington case gauge type trimmer that works well.