GRAPHIC: Was This the Worst Hunting Accident Ever?

[John Boy]

https://www.wideopenspaces.com/graph...4-BWthPTwaS9x4

[hc18flyer]

Bad, but too many deaths occur. This past weekend a Hunter passing a rifle down from a tree stand was killed when it discharged. The son my have accidentally killed his father, tough to live with! My Grandfather was killed crossing a fence with a 20 gauge shotgun when my Mom was an infant. hc18flyer

[MrWolf]

Ouch. Bet that hurt a bit. Doesn't even look like a thumb.

[Traffer]

There was a discussion somewhere a couple of months ago about (I believe) this gun. Are not these the muzzle loaders that use smokeless powder? It seems that for what ever reason, (wrong powder of whatever) several of them have blown up. (this may not be the gun, correct me if I am wrong)

[brewer12345]

[Adam Helmer]

John Boy,

As an old federal agent, I need to have a few questions answered. Until then, I will agree that this was a bad event. It has yet to be determined to be an accident.

Adam

[CastingFool]

That is pretty bad. I would think it was likely caused by an obstruction in the barrel, rather than an overcharge. Guns&Ammo published an article years ago, where the author actually tried to blow up a ML barrel by overcharging it. At one point, he put 700 grains of powder, followed by a prb, and fired it. No damage was done to the barrel. He miked the barrel after every shot. No change whatsoever. Even after loading with two balls. He was successful in blowing up the barrel, but only after fully seating one ball, then loading a 2nd ball but leaving some space between the two balls.

[Omega]

Either wrong powder, obstruction or ball not seated all the way, or a combination thereof. That there was catastrophic, and would take alot of pressure to accomplish.

[Geraldo]

I've seen videos comparing rifle destruction caused by smokeless and barrel obstructions, and that looks like smokeless. The Savage was made to use smokeless, but IRCC only one powder and a very specific load. Dump something else in them and they would let go.

[Moleman-]

I have a Savage ml2 muzzleloader and like it. You do have to be more careful with it then a standard muzzleloader you not going to get away with throwing in an extra 20 grains of powder or being lax. There have been blowups that usually are tracked to using a black powder volume measure to measure smokeless powder, going far above the load data charts, using different powders/bullet-sabot combos, double loading, not seating the bullet. There are some that don't have a clear reason, so I can't rule out bad barrels. But most fall into the same reason standard ML guns blow up. There was one highly publicized incident who clearly had an axe to grind (trying to extort money from savage after getting fired) before having his gun blow up strangely right after taking off an expensive scope and putting a cheap one on it which muddys up the water even more. Having followed several of the sagas it really looks like this case was a double load.

[arcticap]

December 21, 2011, 4:56 AM
Sheriff: Ohio man cleaning gun killed Amish girl

FREDERICKSBURG, Ohio - A man cleaning his muzzle-loading rifle shot the gun into the air, accidentally killing
a 15-year-old Amish girl driving a horse-drawn buggy more than a mile away, a sheriff said Tuesday....

...The man had fired the gun in the air about 1.5 miles from where Yoder was shot, Zimmerly said.
State investigators were checking the rifle for a ballistics match, he said....

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/sheriff...ed-amish-girl/


There's also a serious risk whenever someone buys a used muzzle loader that hasn't been checked to see if it's loaded or not.

[fiberoptik]

Have a friend who walked outside on New Years right after midnight; caught a stray 9mm in the heart. Survived, but barely.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Walks]

That poor man, my PRAYERS go out to Him.

I had a hunting Buddy years back that had the same injury, His 20ga Win model 12 blew up in the same place. One of the other Dove Hunters was using a 28ga SxS. That shell would slide into the chamber and be stopped by the rim contacting the end of the chamber. A 20ga shell would slide right in behind it and chamber perfectly. Bore Obstruction.

BOOM !!! They did manage to save his thumb.

[Hickory]

Black powder, Black powder, Black powder, Black powder it's the only one that you should use.
Good by hand, hello wisdom - after the fact.

[wgr]

Question if that is a smokeless muzzle loader what diff. does it make if the round is seated are not? Never owned a smokeless muzzle loader but you do,nt seat smokeless powder on most rifle loads. still you need to be very carefull

[Potsy]

Those graphic Savage pics have been floating around the interweb for years, providing fuel for the hand-wringers and faint of heart. Granted, if you don't watch what you are doing, you'll be hand-wringing without the benefit of opposable thumbs.

Bro in Law has a Savage. Another Pard has some custom smokeless barrel for an NEF that some outfit out of Indiana makes.
While I see the benefit, they can be wonky in terms of ignition and accuracy. Though the Savage seems to be the better of the two, and is an absolute hammer on impact.

I looked at the charges they are running vs. bullet weight and really don't see where you could screw one up IF YOU KNEW WHAT YOU WERE ABOUT AND WERE PAYING ATTENTION. They honestly seem like Trapdoor to lower Marlin level .45-70 loads in a .50 cal. bore. I've even heard some folks whine about how a bullet is not crammed down on the powder in a smokeless cartridge load. Guess they've never tried to seat a 350 Ranch Dog over 55 grains of 3031 in a .45-70.

I've been wanting to go the more traditional route for several years (flintlock, sidelock, etc.), but if I could have another scoped inline by my design, it'd be wrapped around the concept of a .45 bore, a paper patched 350 grainer, 100 grains of Swiss FFg, and Federal 215 ignition. I've got a pretty good idea what kind of pressure that will generate, but don't tell anybody.........

Actual hunting accidents (not blowups by idiots) are another matter altogether and are tragic. I've known of several with tragic consequences and several more near misses. Had a couple near misses and things that could have turned out bad myself, but keeping a gun pointed in a safe direction and keeping my booger hook off the bang switch kept things from getting worse. I did slip a 16ga. shell into my 12ga auto a few years back. Caught it before I dropped the bolt down on it. Now I only dove hunt with one shotgun (and the correct ammo) at a time.

People who fire up into the air with a rifle or pistol in this day and age should be neutered so as not to further pollute the gene pool.

[Ateam]

I have a Savage smokeless muzzle loader which I re-barreled to .458 my self. I don't really see a whole lot of difference between reloading metallic cartridges and a SML. If you grab the wrong powder, or blast out an obstruction, the results are going to be the same in either application.

The seating issue is interesting because with traditional BP you will blow the barrel if you don't seat against the powder. But with smokeless, if you don't seat hard, and have good bore fit, the powder WILL NOT IGNITE.

As for being about trapdoor levels, that may be the case with break actions, but my savage achieves .458 win mag performance levels, many have driven them well past that. If you want to fall down the rabbit hole of SML's, visit Doug's message board :

http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=Ateam;4504604]I have a Savage smokeless muzzle loader which I re-barreled to .458 my self.

As for being about trapdoor levels, that may be the case with break actions, but my savage achieves .458 win mag performance levels, many have driven them well past that.

LUNACY!!!!

[Tatume]

Well built smokeless muzzle loaders are as safe as any other rifle when used responsibly by knowledgeable shooters. Problems arise from ignorance and irresponsibility. For example, a fellow I know bought a Savage ML II mail-order, and went to the LGS for a pound of powder. Then he came to my house and asked me to teach him how to load it. I asked why he bought Bullseye powder, and he said the guy at the gun store recommended it. I bought the can of Bullseye from him and gave him some correct powder so he could go hunting. I also loaded the gun for him. Later I learned that he sold the gun without ever firing a shot from it. The problem is not the gun. It's the nut behind the trigger.

[oldracer]

I would venture to say it is a double load. There was an Hi Wall action blow up at a schuetzen match in San Diego years ago and the shooter did not get hurt as he was using a palm rest and most of the parts flew upwards. When he investigated he found his loads were double and he remembered he had been interrupted by a telephone call when doing his match rounds. He was never interrupted again and also looked into each case to see the height of the powder in the case. As for an air gap behind the ball or bullet, remember the first Sharps rifles had the bullet seated then powder poured in behind the lead bullet and action closed. There was usually some air space left once the action was closed? This was before they were converted to cartridge use.