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Thread: CB Slug was verses WAA12 in accuracy test with Lyman clone’s

  1. #1
    Boolit Master Blood Trail's Avatar
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    CB Slug was verses WAA12 in accuracy test with Lyman clone’s

    Ok, so I was all set up to do a couple of vids this weekend on a side-by-side accuracy comparison of the CB slug wad and real WAA12’s, my custom slug barrel on my 220 I got back from Randy Fritz at Tarhunt, swaged rifled Lyman Foster Slugs I received from dsh1106, and 20 ga Russia. Lyman Cone slugs, but as I got to the range, I forgot the battery to my brand new camcorder (upgrade from iPad and iPhone).

    Anyway, I went ahead and shot them. As for accuracy wise, the WAA12 kicked the CB Slug wad’s behind 50 yards.

    I recovered some CB slug wads. Some had petals torn, some and crush section smashed, etc.

    The load I used was Remington American Clay hulls (same as STS), real WAA12 and CB Slug was, 25 grs of Herco, Fed209A, Russian Lyman clone, fold crimp.

    Here’s the velocity for the CB Slug wads:

    1. 1228
    2. 1264
    3. 1204
    4. 1245
    5. 1260

    Group:



    Velocity for the WAA12:

    1. 1284
    2. 1272
    3. 1250
    4. 1253
    5. 1264

    Group:




    Both groups where shot out of my USH. You would assume same POI, but not even close.

    The WAA12 group was 8 in 12 o’clock high when aim center mass. The CB Slug was grouped 6-8” 6 o’clock low.

    I’m baffled by that.

    Next time, testing will be done under a more controlled environment besides a public gun range (deer season at the ranch, so no shooting there). I need more datum points before I can really give a solid opinion.


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    Last edited by Blood Trail; 11-11-2018 at 05:13 PM.

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    Boolit Master

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    After scratching my head a minute and looking at the photos carefully, it seems to me that the low group holes are not cut as cleanly s the high group. Since there's not enough velocity difference to account for that much difference in drop, perhaps there's enough wobble from the CB wads to account for it. Einstein I ain't so that's why I test. This works well, that one doesn't, I load the one that works. That's a fairly mild load and guessing the CB would do even worse loaded a little warmer. Imagine the difference at 100 yds. Thanks for the test BT.
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  3. #3
    Boolit Master

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    BT, your POI-POA discrepancy is very much akin to what I have found in my trials. Same load in both but different POI. What surprises me about your report is that the WWAA12 wads did so well! I've tried them repeatedly ( the WWAAF114 also) and had no success. For some reason the WW wads all had deformed gas seals, the rifling seems to have shredded the bottom edge of the seal at the land. The Federal 12S3's have held up remarkably well for me though!
    "We take a thousand moments for granted thinking there will be a thousand more to come. Each day, each breath, each beat of your heart is a gift. Live with love & joy, tomorrow is not promised to anyone......"

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    Boolit Master Blood Trail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by centershot View Post
    BT, your POI-POA discrepancy is very much akin to what I have found in my trials. Same load in both but different POI. What surprises me about your report is that the WWAA12 wads did so well! I've tried them repeatedly ( the WWAAF114 also) and had no success. For some reason the WW wads all had deformed gas seals, the rifling seems to have shredded the bottom edge of the seal at the land. The Federal 12S3's have held up remarkably well for me though!
    Were you using the CB versions of WAA wads?


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    Boolit Grand Master

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    I haven't used the Winchester wads with the Lyman clone but they have done well for me with other slugs. So far of what I have tried the old Pacific Verelite has been best. I'll have to order some Federal wads as they seem to have a good rep.

    Now that I have my new to me Mossberg I find that there is 0.003" difference between the Mossberg bore and my single shot bore. This will make slug shooting... or at least slug loading more complicated I think as it is unlikely the two guns will like the same slug/wad combo. this is where I think a full bore slug will be better. Just let it swage down to suit. I can't think that a full bore Brenneke or similar slug would much care as the ribs are designed to swage down. So while two guns may shoot them differently I have to think accuracy could be good in both so once sights are set both guns should be good... but I've been wrong before.

    I'll have to knurl some of my full bore 0.729" slugs up to 0.735" then push through my new 0.730" bore to see how it goes. If they don't seem too tight I'll try some relatively light loads to see how that goes. Really it shouldn't be any worse than a full bore slug, or wad slug that is snug to bore, hitting a choke.

    A bit off topic but this is where wad slugs seem to be an issue. I don't know but maybe a tough wad like the Federals would allow for an oversize final diameter but swage to suit a smaller bore without failure?

    I'm not sure which is better either, a slug like the Lyman sabot slug with quite small bearing area or like the Lee with full length bearing area.

    I'm thinking that if the slug/wad combo is too tight the petals may shear at those narrow bearing areas with the Lyman design. Have you tested that BT?

    Longbow

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    Boolit Master Blood Trail's Avatar
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    I’m wondering how critical a roll petal shearing plays downrange accuracy?

    Let me explain:

    If the point of the wad is to “sabot” the slug, helping it impart a spin, does it really matter the condition of petals once it’s done it’s job?

    Just a thought.

    LB,

    I’m just now getting around to playing with Lyman slugs. I have the both the Russian clone with different insert pins to alter weight and the original Lyman. I would like to test the commie slug against the Lyman to see if there is a difference in accuracy.

    I know a while back, I tried using just the shotcup as a sabot with a built fiber column, with marginal results.


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  7. #7
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Here's my take on petal squish and shearing.

    Shotgun wads are not true sabots and are not made to exacting standards. Greg Sappington did a lot of work and testing to try and get a high and consistent level of accuracy from wad slugs but in the end gave up because the wads are not precision made. Petals are not even thicknesses. Greg went to true sabot slugs using machined Delrin sabots.

    I mean when we are reloading metallic cartridges we are worried about very tight tolerances at every level from brass volumes to neck concentricity, boolit seating depth, etc. and all withing fractions of a thou.

    Injection moulded shotcups just aren't up to those standards.

    Point being that if the petals aren't even thickness and a petal fails due to shearing then the slug will not be traveling concentrically in the bore which can't do anything but hurt accuracy. In fact, even if petals don't shear but are not even thickesses the slug won't be concentric in the bore but if a petal shears then that is likely to get worse.

    Now, I'd agree that if all petals sheared at the same place consistently but kept the slug concentric in the bore and wad released evenly accuracy would probably be okay but is that likely to happen?

    Same applies to skirt collapse. If the skirt collapses evenly and consistently then accuracy should not be affected. This would be analgous to BP paper patch boolit shooters that patch to bore diameter. Those boolits obturate from bore to groove diameter which is a substantial "deformation" but they do it the same every time so are accurate. If a slug deforms evenly and the same amount every time then the deformation shouldn't affect accuracy. However, we are talking plastic wads with cushion legs providing less than a solid base under that slug and petals that are not necessarily keeping the slug centered in the bore.

    At least for me, when I get poor accuracy wads are generally in bad shape ~ blown gas seals, sheared and/or wrinkled petals. When I get good accuracy wads are generally in good shape.

    Loose wad tolerances likely don't show up so much shooting smoothbore as they would in a rifled gun partly because of the spin/concentricity issue and partly because rifled barrels are going to produce more petal squish.

    I don't know... just thinking out loud here.

    I got to get out and do some more shooting with same load and slug but different wads and see what happens. Like I need anything else to do! I got to get retired so I have time to do all this fun stuff!

    Longbow

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    Boolit Master

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    I posted results of the straight wall wads that worked for me. They are also thin and the petals all shear off like you used a razor blade. There is a nice snap fit inside the shotcup (hot glue filled and trimmed) and the base is perfect though and the results are very good. It occurred to me that the top flat rim of the lyman is the widest part and that is the only part of the slug that engages the rifling. The physics elude me but I can shoot legit 3" groups at 100 yds at about 1450 fps in 2 3/4" hulls using Longshot out of an 870. Neck shot one at 86 yds with that load. My mold is the 2 cavity brass mold from MP group buy a while back.
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  9. #9
    Boolit Grand Master

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    I probably saw that post but don't recall details. What was the straight sided wad?

    From what Randy said about the petal taper on the Federal wads they match the taper of the Lee and Lyman slugs so with those or similar wads both the base and base should engage rifling.

    I was actually wondering if Lyman intended the skirt to collapse some and put the bevel on it for that reason. Slugs I have recovered that other people shot show skirt collapse and obturation to fill the bore when they are soft lead. I'd wondering if others here with Lyman sabot slug moulds have seen that. It may depend on load and powder burn rate along with soft lead slug but I've seen several slugs that have obturated like that. Likely would happen with ACWW or at least as much.

    One of my hollow base slugs sheared petals off at the both when it obturated which is what lead me to thinking Lyman put the bevel on for that reason... so when the slug obturates the sharp edge at the bottom isn't pressing out on the wad petal.

    On a somewhat different not, I just noticed that NOE has now included the HB drawing of the Lyman clone and it shows center of pressure behind CG like Ranch Dog says the Lee slugs have. Do we know if this is common with HB slugs?

    Longbow

  10. #10
    Boolit Master

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    This has the same shotcup as the trap commander wad from BPI, but the cushion section is stiffer and less prone to tilting. Also has 2 additional benefits for me, cheap as dirt and great for birdshot we use a lot of. https://www.ballisticproducts.com/No...tinfo/139GTT1/
    Attachment 230305
    Click image for larger version. 

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    This target was shot on a sunny Feb. day this year, a little wind was moving the flimsey plastic real estate type sign on thin metal legs. Here is a link to the loading thread I did for a fellow Canadian a while back with data:
    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...5-for-Boomer81
    Last edited by Hogtamer; 11-12-2018 at 07:39 AM.
    "My main ambition in life is to be on the devil's most wanted list."
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    Quote Originally Posted by longbow View Post
    At least for me, when I get poor accuracy wads are generally in bad shape ~ blown gas seals, sheared and/or wrinkled petals. When I get good accuracy wads are generally in good shape.
    This has been my observation as well. I will go one further, the wads that have sheared petals or collapsed compression struts are scattered up and down my range. I've gotten to where I pick them all up because I don't like the trash on my property, but more than that, the wads are trying to tell me some kind of story about the accuracy I see down range. My best shooting with the Lee, haven't had the NOE long enough yet, has been with the 12S3 wad with petals trimmed to the Lee's one-ounce slug's ogive. With no wind, I will find the spent wads at 27-yards, five within a 9" circle. With a 15 mph wind, the circle is an elongated oval only 18" in length. I got to listen to that.

    That gets me to 50-yards, and then the slug's properties take over and it does it's own thing.
    Michael

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ranch Dog View Post
    That gets me to 50-yards, and then the slug's properties take over and it does it's own thing.
    Michael is that with rifled gun?

    You've mentioned helical flight before. Is it around 50 yards where that kicks in? I watched video by Taoflermaus where it appeared that Lee slugs were following quite erratic flight patterns from both smoothbore and rifled choke tubes. In these cases there is no "fitting" of slugs in wads to bore.

    From smoothbore:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGBsj6nw900

    Rifled choke tube:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9T3bp9ZpLUA

    You pointed out that the center of pressure is behind the cg with Lee slugs. NOE has put up the HB version of the Lyman slug and it suffers from the same issue. Makes me wonder if all blunt HB slugs have the same issue.

    I'll take a guess that any instability is magnified bunches as the slug goes transonic which should be happening around 50 yards or a bit further depending on BC and initial velocity.

    So far I haven't found any slo-mo video of Lyman sabot slugs.

    Longbow

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    Quote Originally Posted by longbow View Post
    Michael is that with rifled gun?
    All my shooting has been with rifled barrels; Rossi Single Shot, Mossberg 695, and Marlin 512.

    Quote Originally Posted by longbow View Post
    I'll take a guess that any instability is magnified bunches as the slug goes transonic which should be happening around 50 yards or a bit further depending on BC and initial velocity.
    My guess is it starts sooner than we think, the inherent instablity is there when it leaves the muzzle. Might be that any disturbance sets it in motion; petals eroding with the barrel, column wad struct collapse, column wad not departing clean because it is hung up in the base cavity, going sub sonic, etc. Honestly, all this swirels around in my mind. You could elminate the speed question by keeping muzzle below 1340 , but then there are some benefits to RPM. With my Lee loads, those moving along at 1600+ have MOAs half of what the 1300 FPS loads had. With the velocity and twist, the additional speed increases the RPM about 9K.

    Quote Originally Posted by longbow View Post
    So far I haven't found any slo-mo video of Lyman sabot slugs.
    Either have I.
    Michael

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    Boolit Grand Master

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    Now I am wondering... shouldn't center of pressure be behind the CG for drag stabilized slugs and in front for slugs from rifled guns?

    Have you considered round balls? 0.678" RB's in an appropriate shotcup are a good fit. 0.662" RB's in steel shot shotcups are a good fit. and 0.735" RB's are a good fit for bore size. Even 0.690" RB's in thin petal shotcups could work.

    I guess this is drifting off topic now except for the RB's in wads... more or less.

    Longbow

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    I never had luck with the waa12 wads with the Lyman slugs. The only ones I could ever get to shoot really well were the short red ones they don't make anymore. I can not remember the number off right now. But they were awesome in 2 3/4" AA and Rem STS hulls with the Lymann slug.

    I am pretty sure it is because of it how the crush section held together. All of the wads I recovered were complete. While other wads were tore to pieces and deformed and the based was sometimes tore off. Not to sure if the replacement wads are of the same quality as the Win ones. But it may be worth a few loads to try them. Or I can send you some of the Original Win to try. I do not have many left but it can tell you if it is worth trying to locate originals or buying the clones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by longbow View Post
    Now I am wondering... shouldn't center of pressure be behind the CG for drag stabilized slugs and in front for slugs from rifled guns?

    Have you considered round balls? 0.678" RB's in an appropriate shotcup are a good fit. 0.662" RB's in steel shot shotcups are a good fit. and 0.735" RB's are a good fit for bore size. Even 0.690" RB's in thin petal shotcups could work.

    I guess this is drifting off topic now except for the RB's in wads... more or less.
    Yeah, lets do this in another topic. I need to get my hound out and then put him back in, wind chill is really low for South Texas, then I will put in text where I sit with this. Hopefully others can add their thoughts.
    Michael

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    Boolit Master Blood Trail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomme boy View Post
    I never had luck with the waa12 wads with the Lyman slugs. The only ones I could ever get to shoot really well were the short red ones they don't make anymore. I can not remember the number off right now. But they were awesome in 2 3/4" AA and Rem STS hulls with the Lymann slug.

    I am pretty sure it is because of it how the crush section held together. All of the wads I recovered were complete. While other wads were tore to pieces and deformed and the based was sometimes tore off. Not to sure if the replacement wads are of the same quality as the Win ones. But it may be worth a few loads to try them. Or I can send you some of the Original Win to try. I do not have many left but it can tell you if it is worth trying to locate originals or buying the clones.
    You’re referring to the WAA12R wads. I used the CB version at the range and hit everything but the target.


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  18. #18
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blood Trail View Post
    Were you using the CB versions of WAA wads?


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    No, I used real Winchester AA12's & AA12F114's.
    "We take a thousand moments for granted thinking there will be a thousand more to come. Each day, each breath, each beat of your heart is a gift. Live with love & joy, tomorrow is not promised to anyone......"

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    Blood, they proved to be the best for me. But mine were the original Win.

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    Boolit Master Blood Trail's Avatar
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    I heard CB uses a recycled plastic that's softer than the original AA's. Not sure if that's true, but I know the internal dimensions aren't the same.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check