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Thread: Bad lot of primers?

  1. #41
    Boolit Master
    Mal Paso's Avatar
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    According to a former CCI official the primer pellet should be penetrated by the anvil during seating for proper ignition. This was an article written for a web site/magazine after he retired.

    The trouble is the manufacturers will say NOTHING about their products except that they are the best and so old wives tails are born.
    Last edited by Mal Paso; 11-18-2018 at 11:24 AM.
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  2. #42
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    In my lifetime I can only remember 2 FTF's. One primer was missing the anvil and I don't remember what I found on the other one. It was too long ago! Anyway, 3 FTF in a single batch is totally unacceptable! This is not the first thread that I have read about problems with Winchester primers. WW is officially off of my purchase list. I've had really good service from CCI over the years and have also been satisfied with Federal although the only Federal primers that I buy are 210M that I shoot in competition.

    I uniform primer pockets on most of my rifle loads and I only use a tool that is non adjustable. I have one made by Whitetail Engineering and a couple from Sinclair. Both are quality tools.

  3. #43
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    Not the article I was looking for but the same guy.

    Allan Jones, Shooting Times:

    "Boxer primers leave the factory with the anvil higher than it would be when seated in a cartridge case. Seating so anvil legs touch the bottom of the pocket lets the anvil tip penetrate into the pellet of mix. The nearly universal recommendation of having the primer cup bottom 0.003 to 0.005 inch below flush with the case head exists to set the proper amount of priming mix between the cup and the anvil tip.




    This critical distance is known as the bridge thickness. Establishing the optimum thickness through proper seating means the primer meets sensitivity specifications but does not create chemical instability. However, failing to set the bridge thickness through proper seating depth is the number one cause of primer failures to fire. The bridge thickness is too great with a high primer, even one whose anvil legs touch the bottom of the pocket."
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  4. #44
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    It is my understanding that when a primer is seated properly, the anvil "compresses" the priming mixture by a precise amount to increase the sensitivity of the priming mixture to impacts and provide consistent ignition. In my view, this is not a "penetration" of the priming mixure but a "compression" of the priming mixture. Real "penetrations" in homogeneous solids are typically unpredictable. Priming mixtures are added to primer cups while the priming mixture is "wet" for safety reasons. The priming mixture then dries to a hard solid which is now more sensitive to ignition from impacts. It follows, that if a hard priming mixture is cracked, from a seating misalignment, i.e. "crunched primer', poor or inconsistent ignition or lack of ignition will be the end result. This is because the priming mixture is now broken into many pieces.

    Best regards,

    CJR

  5. #45
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    I contacted CCI years ago on FTF. I was advised the cup mouth was cut straighter and sharper than most primers, and needed to be seated rather hard to be sure they were properly seated. After I started using a bit more pressure, the problem went away. I stick with Federals now.
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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by CJR View Post
    It is my understanding that when a primer is seated properly, the anvil "compresses" the priming mixture by a precise amount to increase the sensitivity of the priming mixture to impacts and provide consistent ignition. In my view, this is not a "penetration" of the priming mixure but a "compression" of the priming mixture. Real "penetrations" in homogeneous solids are typically unpredictable. Priming mixtures are added to primer cups while the priming mixture is "wet" for safety reasons. The priming mixture then dries to a hard solid which is now more sensitive to ignition from impacts. It follows, that if a hard priming mixture is cracked, from a seating misalignment, i.e. "crunched primer', poor or inconsistent ignition or lack of ignition will be the end result. This is because the priming mixture is now broken into many pieces.

    Best regards,

    CJR
    That was reported as the true cause of the CCI being a "Hard Primer". That the pellet fractured rather than deformed. CCI abandoned that formula.

    I went through FTF issues early in reloading as I started with a Redhawk known for light primer strikes. I bought a batch of really hard Winchesters and properly seated some took two strikes to make a deep enough depression to light them off even with a new factory mainspring. I have had the same problem with some Tula and Magtec. It has been suggested that military specifications are used for all primers made by some manufacturers.
    Mal

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  7. #47
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    I don’t understand the part about the primer being seated deep enough, to put pressure on the anvil.

    The bottom of the pocket is flat or in some cases a little concave from previous primers flash. The anvil is not protruding, if anything set in a bit. To put pressure on the anvil. The outside of the primer case would have to be deformed.

    I haven’t seen any signs of that in exracted primers. This practice of seating primers to put pressure on the anvil seems illogical and maybe even dangerous.

    Maybe someone can explain it differently, so it will make sense to me.

    Thanks

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by GregLaROCHE View Post
    I don’t understand the part about the primer being seated deep enough, to put pressure on the anvil.

    Maybe someone can explain it differently, so it will make sense to me.

    Thanks
    I am no primer expert, but I think I can explain it...Maybe...

    In putting in primers I have noticed that the "legs" of the new anvil appear to be protruding just a mite from the place where they would be when one presses the primer completely into the pocket.
    While the center of the pocket may be bulged a bit on the case toward the powder "chamber" where the primer hole is, the outsides where the case is thicker ( in most modern centerfire cases) seem to remain pretty well in place after firings. Thus, the "legs" of the anvil that are sticking out a bit, when the primer is pressed into where they should be at 0.003 to 0.005, the legs then will match up with the primer sides & be pressing on the primer material inside. And awaiting a "strike" from a firing pin.

    Case #5 in the pic is what I mean about the support of the primer pocket:


    I hope that helps...

    If not, I am sure someone better at explaining it will come to your assistance shortly.
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  9. #49
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    Apologies for the lighting but here is a Federal 150 showing the legs.

    Maybe not all primers are like this, I have no other brands on hand. If the legs on yours don't protrude your manufacturer has a different method is all. Allan Jones said every time Speer came close to Chart for primers one of the manufacturers would make a big change.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Mal Paso; 11-18-2018 at 09:00 PM.
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  10. #50
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    Well now it’s starting to make sense. I’ve got to take a close look at my primers. I probably just never paid that much attention to them, except making sure I wasn’t putting one in upside down.
    Thanks

  11. #51
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    About 15yrs ago I bought 1 sleeve of WIN SP primers, they had just changed to the blue packaging and from Nickel-plated cups to brass-plated cups. I had 6 FTF in the 1st 100 primers I loaded.

    I called Winchester and complained about this problem, They 1st said it was my Gun, when I told them I had tried to fire these "DUDS" in five different guns, they said it was my Dillon press crushing the primers. I told them I didn't own a Dillon, but had hand seated the primers, they said it was my technique. Then they said the lot # was a year old and I must have stored the primers incorrectly. I still have about 1500. I save them for plinking loads, Failure rate is about 5%.

    They sent me a $10 off coupon for $100 worth of Winchester Ammo. No retailer would except the coupon.

    Haven't bought a Winchester anything since. I pay more for other Brands of Primers or .22LR ammo, Won't even buy WIN powder, even though it's made/marketed by HODGDON.
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  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walks View Post
    About 15yrs ago I bought 1 sleeve of WIN SP primers, they had just changed to the blue packaging and from Nickel-plated cups to brass-plated cups. I had 6 FTF in the 1st 100 primers I loaded.

    I called Winchester and complained about this problem, They 1st said it was my Gun, when I told them I had tried to fire these "DUDS" in five different guns, they said it was my Dillon press crushing the primers. I told them I didn't own a Dillon, but had hand seated the primers, they said it was my technique. Then they said the lot # was a year old and I must have stored the primers incorrectly. I still have about 1500. I save them for plinking loads, Failure rate is about 5%.

    They sent me a $10 off coupon for $100 worth of Winchester Ammo. No retailer would except the coupon.

    Haven't bought a Winchester anything since. I pay more for other Brands of Primers or .22LR ammo, Won't even buy WIN powder, even though it's made/marketed by HODGDON.
    Yeah, that kind of customer service will sure turn you off.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walks View Post
    About 15yrs ago I bought 1 sleeve of WIN SP primers, they had just changed to the blue packaging and from Nickel-plated cups to brass-plated cups. I had 6 FTF in the 1st 100 primers I loaded.

    I called Winchester and complained about this problem, They 1st said it was my Gun, when I told them I had tried to fire these "DUDS" in five different guns, they said it was my Dillon press crushing the primers. I told them I didn't own a Dillon, but had hand seated the primers, they said it was my technique. Then they said the lot # was a year old and I must have stored the primers incorrectly. I still have about 1500. I save them for plinking loads, Failure rate is about 5%.

    They sent me a $10 off coupon for $100 worth of Winchester Ammo. No retailer would except the coupon.

    Haven't bought a Winchester anything since. I pay more for other Brands of Primers or .22LR ammo, Won't even buy WIN powder, even though it's made/marketed by HODGDON.
    With that kind of service, I'm glad the primers I first wrote about, that are on their way back to the mfr, weren't Winchesters!
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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
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