Don,
To be blunt, you are wrong. Static electricity isn't a concern with BP; the carbon in it conducts it to a ground source. However if a lightening bolt strikes it that's a different story as it has enough amperage to ignite it. Proven fact!
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Don,
To be blunt, you are wrong. Static electricity isn't a concern with BP; the carbon in it conducts it to a ground source. However if a lightening bolt strikes it that's a different story as it has enough amperage to ignite it. Proven fact!
NRA Endowment member, TSRA Life member, Distinguished Rifleman, Viet Nam Vet
Static electricity is a known and documented cause for both grain elevator and coal dust explosion's. While not common when you have dust suspended in the air and a spark explosions do happen.
Since non sparking balls are used in the final roller milling before the BP is pelleted and crushed my guess the same would be true for BD dust. Static electrify is not an issue with BP in the grain form. Dust apparently is based on that's when BP manufactures tend to have expulsions.
What Causes Grain Elevator Explosions?
https://explosionburnlawyer.com/what...rain.%20Oxygen.
Grain produces dust when it moves. This dust is suspended in the air inside the elevator, creating a combustible mixture that is highly flammable. All it takes is one spark and the whole elevator can explode. Static electricity, a light switch, or friction can create a spark that can lead to an explosion.
There are several conditions that must be met before a grain elevator can explode. They are:
Fuel, which could be dust particles that are suspended in the air from any type of stored grain
Oxygen
Enclosed space, which could be basement tunnels, the grain bin itself, silos, downspouts, or drag conveyors, and
An ignition source, which could be static electricity, a lit cigarette, lightning, sparks from welding torches, friction, or overheated equipment.
Explosions can also occur if grain dust accumulates on a surface and is exposed to an ignition source. Hot bearings, overheated motors, misaligned conveyer belts, welding equipment, and cutting tools can all become ignition sources.
Impressive video of an experimental coal dust explosion.
Last edited by M-Tecs; 07-05-2020 at 06:14 PM.
2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
"Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
– Amber Veal
"The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
- Wayne Dyer
I find it unfortunate that many places stopped stocking it because of regulations.
"If everyone is thinking the same thing it means someone is not thinking"
"A rat became the unit of currency"
Dust from grain, coal and I'm sure BP is a different animal due to their microscopic size. A lump of coal or a kernel of grain won't readily ignite from normal static electrical discharges either.
Last edited by LynC2; 07-06-2020 at 06:34 AM. Reason: spelling
NRA Endowment member, TSRA Life member, Distinguished Rifleman, Viet Nam Vet
I believe in reasonable respect for everything but if black powder or mecuric or lead stiffinate primers or tumbler dust (or C-19) were truly half as bad as some easily frightened folk seem to believe there would be a mile wide trail of dead people everywhere ammo has ever been used.
Everyone I've ever known who fear gunpowder of any color has not yet seen the stuff burnt free of containment; once they see a demonstration like your's the fear subsides.Originally Posted by John Boy
Ditto the terrors of "explosions" of our piddly little live primers. I used to know a guy who let a new brick of primers get into trash he was burning in his basement in a steel wood stove. He said it took awhile for a thousand of those little devices to cook off!
All comments fine and dandy - but - if we fail to treat our propellants with the respect they deserve - someone will get hurt ----there was an earlier post someone ran a trail of blackpowder out in the loading room and lit it to prove a point to a mate -----dumb------ is the only printable word I have for that little demo!!!
What they say about blasters (powder monkeys) - theres old ones, and theres bold ones, but theres NO old bold ones.....................
Are you talking about John Boy? First of all, I'm guessing he was not in the reloading room when lighting powder. Second, it's not dangerous to light a small trail of gun powder. I'd go so far that it's safer than your average fireworks.
yup - his post said they was in the loading room and he lit it before his mate had time to leave the room - in that case my comment stands and I dont care if he or you is offended nor do I care by how much - out in the yard - who cares - but in the loading room before your mate has the chance to leave - dumb - stoopid - and bragging about doin it makes it way worse............................................. .....
I don't believe anyone here has negated the need for common sense care. What we have referred to has been the near panic some people seem to experience when around powders and primers at all.
" A friend was in the reloading room and commented how dangerous BP was. So I poured a pile on a steel plate and beat it with a steel hammer. Then I said to Scottie ... watch this. Made trail of the powder on the steel plate and got my lighter out of my pocket. Asked him if he wanted to leave the room and before he could reply ... lite the powder trail. He is now a believer it Ain’t "
If I misread this then I will apologise ? .................................................. ????
(have shot over 50 pound of HM powder since 2015 --- I do have some skin in this game - not one of the panic merchant brigade)
"no old, bold blasters"
It'll put yer eye out, kid....
"In general, the art of government is to take as much money as possible from one class of citizens and give it to another class of citizens" Voltaire'
The common virtue of capitalism is the sharing of equal opportunity. The common vice of socialism is the equal sharing of misery
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Goodness! Read or "misread" .... I haven't a clue; what's your point????
I'll admit that when you highlight it that way, it could be misread. I sure don't read it the way you did. I don't know John Boy, but I'm pretty sure he is intelligent enough not to light a fire or smoke in his reloading room.
megasupermagnum, your almost totally correct:I don't know John Boy, but I'm pretty sure he is intelligent enough not to light a fire or smoke in his reloading room
* My reloading room has long work benches along 3 walls:
* All powders are in a fire safe cabinet is a separate room
* All reloaded ammunition are in a separate room
* The reloading room only has reloading presses, empty powder chargers, empty brass in a cabinet, trays of cast bullets under one counter, 2 safes, tools and related firearms accessories on shelves on the 4th wall
The test provided to Scottie was less than an ounce of black powder poured on the steel plate on the work bench on the left. Yes, the short trail smoked when I lit it with a match, as black powder does. The container of black powder was closed and on the work bench on the opposite wall.
And no I am not "stupiddd" as one poster said, because black powder will not explode when not in an enclosed container when ignited to deflagurate (not explode) as does smokeless powder. The 'explosion' incidents usually fires read about at the mills normally happen in the corning house with large quantities of DRY powder being ground and sieved for ratio sizes.
When I reload, there is only one can of powder in the reloading room and is tightly closed and away from the powder charger and presses until I am done so the excess powder in the charger can be funneled back into the container
Now, for the "intelligent enough not to light a fire or smoke in his reloading room" ... I smoke a pipe when I reload with a 20 lb fire extingusher on the floor next to the door to the loading room. Should I not smoke while reloading - agree but old habits going back going back over 50 years are hard to change not having a pipe in my mouth while reloading ... So Be It
Last edited by John Boy; 07-15-2020 at 05:36 PM.
Regards
John
It's carbon conducting the spark to ground that is the issue. It's a spark hitting a conductive, flammable (and in this case, explosive) substance that is the concern. The spark wouldn't hit it if it was an insulating material. The real issue is that the amount of heat required to ignite the black powder is not likely to be supplied by a static spark. Not unless that spark is quite substantial. A static spark would need to hit a small enough particle to heat it to ignition point. Would a small enough particle igniting produce enough heat to ignite the rest of the powder?
It's like swiping your hand through a flame. The flame has the potential to do serious bodily harm but the swipe is too fast for enough heat transfer to take place. Ever tried pouring a teaspoon of methylated spirits in your palm and lighting it? The flame doesn't burn you because the evaporating meths keep your hand cool. Just don't get a fright when it lights with a poof and throw it all over yourself. That could end badly. It's ironical, I'm a nervous and jumpy person yet when playing with fire I can have nerves of steel.
Risking sparks on black power or any other explosively or just plain combustible material is no less clever than lighting meths on the palm of your hand. So shoot me. I done some seriously stoopiddd stuff in my youth. None of it ever killed me though. (I can't say the same for my eyebrows). Luckily I was indestructible in my youth - weren't we all! Well, I shouldn't be suggesting that anyone else did dumb stuff like that. If only I had been that confident and bold with the girls.
Last edited by 303Guy; 07-15-2020 at 10:23 PM.
Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)
''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''
We have a lot in common.It's carbon conducting the spark to ground that is the issue. It's a spark hitting a conductive, flammable (and in this case, explosive) substance that is the concern. The spark wouldn't hit it if it was an insulating material. The real issue is that the amount of heat required to ignite the black powder is not likely to be supplied by a static spark. Not unless that spark is quite substantial. A static spark would need to hit a small enough particle to heat it to ignition point. Would a small enough particle igniting produce enough heat to ignite the rest of the powder?
It's like swiping your hand through a flame. The flame has the potential to do serious bodily harm but the swipe is too fast for enough heat transfer to take place. Ever tried pouring a teaspoon of methylated spirits in your palm and lighting it? The flame doesn't burn you because the evaporating meths keep your hand cool. Just don't get a fright when it lights with a poof and throw it all over yourself. That could end badly. It's ironical, I'm a nervous and jumpy person yet when playing with fire I can have nerves of steel.
Risking sparks on black power or any other explosively or just plain combustible material is no less clever than lighting meths on the palm of your hand. So shoot me. I done some seriously stoopiddd stuff in my youth. None of it ever killed me though. (I can't say the same for my eyebrows
Back in the 50’s, young and dumb, my one and only exposure to no eye brows and a bedroom filled with smoke was mixing home made BP in a mortar and pestol .... DRY
That’s why at the plants the mix in the ball mills is 20% water and then dried during the caking process
Regards
John
I was at a BP competition some years ago, and a competitor who was upset at not doing well, grumbling and snarling in frustration, stepped to the firing line to the right of a fellow with a flintlock as the flint shooter touched off his shot. Our grumbler caught a bit of ejecta from the touch hole and angrily exclaimed, "GEEMINY! How BIG IS that hole ANYWAY?!?" From an unknown in the crowd was heard, "I dunno. Stick your head in there and see!" I loved that crowd.
I agree that much mythology abounds about the nature of BP. Who hasn't heard, "It gets more and more touchy and powerful the older it gets! That old civil war stuff is like dynamite now!!" Spare me such "wisdom". I've tried the hammer (on concrete, on steel, and an anvil) and static experiments and could never get it to ignite without heat. Some years ago CVA brought out the Electra (was it?) muzzleloader with electronic ignition and they had a long explanation about what it took to ignite BP tightly packed in a chamber and using a capacitive discharge circuit of some sort to get reliable ignition, especially without fouling up the ignition system. It sounded like quite a bit of development went into it, but they don't make it anymore. The chief difference I notice between BP and smokeless is their respective ignitability. An unconfined train of smokeless burns lazily, and the train is easily scattered and the flame stopped. BP, on the other hand may take a bit to ignite, but once lit, the flame front propagates with astonishing rapidity and any grains it reaches will be consumed. Many a young tyro has had his fingers painfully scalded, thinking he could touch a match to a thimble-full of loose BP and pull his hand away quickly enough to avoid being burned, but without success. Confined or unconfined, once lit, it's over before one can think. The only way to win that game is don't play. Preventive safety precautions are in order, as GONRA notes, but after years of competition and hunting with it, I don't carry my accoutrement in dread of inevitable catastrophy. I have learned from others what not to do - like not to warm my hands at the campfire/space heater/wood stove with powder horn or flask hanging on my person exposed to the heat. Evil, bad suicidal no-no! Imagine getting over an explosion of 1/4 lb. of black, blinded and burned over the whole front of one's torso - alone in the woods in winter and some distance from help. Take it off and leave it hanging away from ignition sources. Same with discharging a pistol or rifle over one's shooting bag, in which is a small accumulation of loose powder over time. I saw that happen, but the brass powder flask in there didn't ignite, thank God. Shooting glasses are cheap and easy insurance, as is hearing rpotection. I use them as a matter of course, as do most.
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