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Thread: Paper over primer?????

  1. #1
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Paper over primer?????

    Just saw this while looking up primer brisance.
    http://www.castingstuff.com/primer_t..._reference.htm

    "Another thing that is not in this test, but I have noted, is using a newsprint wad over the primer. This keeps grains of powder out of the flash hole. It seems to even out the ignition by eliminating a variable (sometimes with grains in and sometimes without grains in, or a variety of combinations)."

    Never heard of doing this.
    I does make sense.
    Anyone tried this????

  2. #2
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    Texas by God's Avatar
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    Sounds like a bad idea sprung from good intentions.

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  3. #3
    Boolit Master

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    sounds like the guy is doing bench rest shooting, might be worth trying if you had a 50 thousand dollar award on the line but not for everyday shooting.
    if you are ever being chased by a taxidermist, don't play dead

  4. #4
    Boolit Buddy Snow ninja's Avatar
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    Seems that by adding a substance that is not as "quickly" flammable as gunpowder would increase variations, especially in an instance of a compressed charge.
    Do the best you can, with what you've got, where you're at. -Theodore Roosevelt

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    I've heard quite a bit about it. One version of the story says it mattered back in the day when primers were different. I'll buy that, maybe.
    Some people still claim it gives a more uniform primer burn, therefore more uniform combustion but I don't know of any reliable testing.
    I think if we knew for certain that it worked, "match" primers would have a little wad of something like newsprint or tissue paper on each one.
    Warning: I know Judo. If you force me to prove it I'll shoot you.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master

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    I don't know anything about paper helping, but I have a slightly relevant personal experience.

    Many years ago when I was young and dumb, someone gave me a bunch of old primed GI 30-06 brass. I think was all from the 1950's, non-corrosive, original crimped primers. It was old and grungy from sitting around in someone's garage for decades. I tumbled it to make it usable, and then realized that a bunch of them now had corn cob bits in the flash holes. I didn't know what to do so I just loaded some up and shot them. They shot fine, and accuracy was normal as I recall back then.

    I wouldn't do that now because I've become too particular about such things, but it is an interesting data point. I guess primers are generally hot enough that they'll pierce right through quite a bit to light the fire.

    I do know they won't pierce through solid brass though. Somewhere in my collection I have a factory round that didn't go off. The primer fired, ruptured and flattened out, but since there was no flash hole in the brass...

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    Putting paper over primers is done by some black powder cartridge shooters that claim it improves consistency in velocity and accuracy.
    Perhaps my learning skills have diminished in my senior years.. 50 years ago I could read something once and then "have it"... Now I read it about three times, do it a couple of times and then... "have it" only about half the time.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Themoose View Post
    Putting paper over primers is done by some black powder cartridge shooters that claim it improves consistency in velocity and accuracy.
    They do, and I won't argue with them because they probably shoot better than I do to begin with. I view it as more of a superstition than anything else but I can't disprove it.
    Warning: I know Judo. If you force me to prove it I'll shoot you.

  9. #9
    Boolit Grand Master

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    This is also a current BPCR fad. I have yet to try it but a friend swears less sd with a primer wad.

  10. #10
    Boolit Grand Master

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    I don't use newsprint but do use aluminum foil in some of my BPCR loads. I get lower Extreme Spreads and Standard Deviations ( usually 3-5 10 shot strings for SD) Accuracy picks up a little also. Steve Garb in SPG manual has talked of it by a disc in the case before powder is dropped and compressed. My disks are between primer and case. I think this adds more hot particles to the primers blast. Im my 45-90 with 550 grn bullet they make a difference and are a plus. In 45-70 and 40-65 it goes either way depending on load. In 38-55 its not hurting but not much difference is seen. One other thing I think may be happening is the disc is lowering the "blast" and not unseating the bullet before powder has completely ignited.

    I have modified my shell holders with a .030 slot in the back as wide as the rim cut. The bottom of the slot is even with the bottom surface of the shell holder. I then cut strips of aluminum foil 3/8" wide and the slot allows me to feed thru and cut disks with the primer when seating. In this way it dosnt add a lot of extra work to the loading.

    When depriming these loads by hand I very seldom recover any of the disks they appear to be completely consumed by the primer blast. On most brass you do need to cut the pocket slightly deeper though.

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    Now that^^ is interesting! Thanks.
    Warning: I know Judo. If you force me to prove it I'll shoot you.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master

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    I have heard guys do it in BPCR as above. I have seen it in some 43 Mauser loads I pulled down. I had several partial boxes of Dominion brand. I wanted the brass so I pulled them. Most had black powder with newspaper wads under bullet and under powder ( in case before powder). The bullets were mostly badly corroded on the bases and the wadding was any where from one or two pieces to a stack a half inch thick. Not at all sure what was going on there, but that's what I saw.

  13. #13
    Boolit Buddy cas's Avatar
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    I do it with my BP .50-90 loads. One layer tissue paper under the primer. One layer in the case over the flash hole. Shrunk the groups, so I didn't question it. Many theories about "muting" the flash/flame.
    Never tried it with smokeless.
    Former cylindersmith.

  14. #14
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Ive never tried it with smokeless loads either ( have thought about it in small case like 22 hornet and 218bee ). I have found it to work well with Black Powder. I was told by an old timer I new that the older primers were much lower pressure and more brisance than todays primers are. Remember that those old sharps rollers and single shots were touted for their accuracy and power. On loads with the disc proper compression and low numbers the fouling seems much lighter also

    While Ive never tried it I suspect that just a primer no powder with out the foil disk will lodge the bullet farther into the barrel than one with the disk. I have fired some primed cases with the disk no bullet or powder and some with out the grit on the patch seemed more than with out indicating more hot particles. With out a lot of testing this is all theory. Some dark pics of both being fired from a short barrel in the dark with grid behind might be interesting to see. flame length size and hot particles should show up along with the length on the grid.

  15. #15
    Boolit Grand Master In Remembrance
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    There was a time when the vendor's made primers for black powder reloads. Then when smi and smokeless powders came on the market, the BP shooters complained the low brisance BP primers would not ignite BP reloads giving uniform SD's using smokeless. So the vendors discontinued making BP primers and only sold smokeless powder primers with a high brisance
    So the BP shooters started putting paper in the primer pockets to reduce the brisance of the smokeless primers ... I've done this using CCI BR-2 primers (lower brisance of the smokeless primers. Primarily shooting BP Mid and Long Range reloads (out to 200 & 1000yds) found no issues with the CCI BR-2 primers only so I stopped using construction paper in the primer pockets. Some BPCR shooters say paper in the pockets works though I have never read any chronographed results that says better ES & SD results ... so I stopped doing it
    Regards
    John

  16. #16
    Boolit Grand Master

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    The way I read (scanned) the article is the tester was using newspaper over the primer not in a "normal" load, but with a primer only for testing the primer not a load...
    My Anchor is holding fast!

  17. #17
    Boolit Master

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    You might look at shotgun primers too. Some have paper inside the primers to keep powder out. Some have some kind of "glue?" and others don't appear to have anything there to prevent powder from getting in. Don't know the reason, but the commercial manufacturers must have some reason behind it.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    I started using thin tissue paper wads under the primer for black powder .38 & .40 rifle loads...then tried in in .22 Hornet & .222Rem. cast..found accuracy a bit more uniform. I now use them in all my cast rifle loads. Now using parchment paper (.0016"). Probably anal more than anything..but has become second nature now...Oh..the primer pockets don't have that hard baked on fouling now!

  19. #19
    Boolit Grand Master
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    I thought the paper was in the case, to cover the flash hole????
    If it's under the primer, the flash hole is still open.
    Does it make a difference????
    With cast boolets, it seems like it would need a filler to keep the paper in place.
    This is kind of interesting.
    Another thing to try.

  20. #20
    Boolit Grand Master
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    So I tried it today.
    Didn't notice any difference.
    Could be I used the wrong paper or it was to small.
    Tried it in a 6.5X50 Arisaka.
    Paper was the thinnest I had on hand.
    Dot was from a hole punch, so it wasn't covering the whole bottom.
    But it did cover the flash hole.
    Dacron filler on top.
    It did feel, to me, that with the paper, recoil was softer.
    Maybe it doesn't work with cast loads.

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BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
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