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Thread: Pass through versus "Energy Dump"

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
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    Pass through versus "Energy Dump"

    I've gotten into a debate about this and would like your opinions. My cast lead bullets have so far, never remained within any animal I've ever shot with cast bullets... well except a large pig where the bullet wasn't able to exit the hide, but did penetrate completely the body cavity. My obersvations are and opinions are that a complete pass through especially with a wide flat meplate, imparts a maximum of damage and energy transfer all the way through the animal, imparting the most damage possible to the animal. With my 58 caliber muzzleloader, I had one bullet enter the front chest at an angle, broke ribs just behind the offside shoulder, and then being trapped by the hide, traveled the length of the deer and exited just in front of the rear leg, taking out the lungs and possibly other organs... she was awash in blood.

    But there seems to be an argument for "energy dump" to reign supreme, yet we've harvested two animals that had been previously shot with bullets that didn't penetrate the animals well, one left with an infected shoulder that was putrified, and another that was hit with a bad shot that left the animal quite incapable of doing much but waiting to die when my hunting partner came across her and put her to rest.

    So I'm looking for opinions, and science, if there is any.

    Thank you...

    Much Aloha...

    Tom

  2. #2
    Boolit Master


    Omega's Avatar
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    I've always felt that you needed both, a bullet that would expand enough to make a bigger hole, penetrate the vitals and exit. When the bullet dumps all its energy upon impact, there may not be enough left to penetrate, especially if the placement is less than optimal. I've shot deer or two where there was little blood sign, luckily the shot was good and they didn't go far. In one case, once I field dressed the deer, I found the bullet, almost intact as it had hit a bone at an oblique angle. The nose had deformed but not mushroomed, and had barely penetrated one wall of the heart. Another case, it went right through but the exit hole was such that there was not much of a trail, if it hadn't been a lung shot, I may have never found the neon trail. Which puts me in the camp of shot placement being #1, then expansion with penetration. I would guess that you need a boolit just hard enough to control expansion, so it can penetrate and exit, yet make a hole big enough for a blood trail.
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  3. #3
    Boolit Buddy
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    Bullet placement and penetration are the 2 main things I look for. The bullet speed and shape are next FP is a better shocker than a round nose.The amount of "energy" is meaningless. How can a 100 lb. deer not be thrown 10yds if it is hit with 2000 FP of "energy". It's because very little energy is transferred to it when hit.
    Last edited by Rimfire; 11-02-2018 at 08:06 AM.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master


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    Personally, I haven't seen an example of Hydro static shock in an animal any larger than a woodchuck or marmot. My observations and first hand experiences are similar to what you describe. I do not believe anyone with any field experience would argue the effectiveness of having a hole on both sides of your game animal.
    “Let us endeavor so to live that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry.”
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  5. #5
    Boolit Buddy kingrj's Avatar
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    When I first started handgun hunting many years ago I was all about energy dump and loaded up some 200 grain JHP's to over 1500 fps in my .44 mag Redhawk...I shot a little buck in the neck at about 40 yards and he dropped like a rock. When I got to him it looked like a cherrybomb had gone off on his neck. I got only about two inches of penetration and if I had had to take a raking angling away shot I would NOT have killed this deer. I have since used only hard cast wide flat nosed bullets in my large caliber handguns and they kill deer from any angle as long as the bullet path goes through a vital area. Some drop on the spot and some run a ways...The problem to me with handguns is that a bullet designed to transfer energy quickly will lack penetration and a bullet designed for penetration will not expand much so a big bore flat nosed hard cast bullet seems to solve both problems. Just my opinion.

  6. #6
    Boolit Buddy Hogdaddy's Avatar
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    To me all my boolits go through the Deer.. I'll neck shot most all deer within 50 yards or less, All have hit the ground not to be tracked.. As to the pass through all have, though the deer around hear are not that big. A 150lb deer is hugh down hear most are 100 - 120 lbs still above average ; )
    H/D

  7. #7
    Boolit Grand Master


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    Agree with Omega; 'Which puts me in the camp of shot placement being #1, then expansion with penetration"
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  8. #8
    Boolit Master
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    Where I hunt tracking is difficult at best if there is no blood trail. Exit wounds generally bleed better than entrance wounds hence a better blood trail. I've shot animals that were dead right there but most often they run at least a short distance and tracking is how we find them.

    Bullet placement is important but we or at least I don't always get perfect placement when we don't then a good blood trail is all important to me. Energy dump works if it is timed exactly to coincide with the animals vitals but unless you take only perfect shots timing becomes problematic, I seldom get the chance for a perfect shot. If you're shooting 100 pound whitetails then energy dump most likely works well but, when it comes to big and possibly dangerous animals I want a bullet that expands but does not blow up and will penetrate deeply enough to damage as much as possible and then exit to allow a good blood trail. Your experience may be different than mine but give me decent penetration with expansion.
    Last edited by elk hunter; 11-02-2018 at 10:41 AM.
    BIG OR SMALL I LIKE THEM ALL, 577 TO 22 HORNET.

  9. #9
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    I want them to bleed from both sides. That is why I don't like hollow points, as they don't penetrate as well, especially on larger animals like elk.
    The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
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  10. #10
    Boolit Master

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    Im with Waksupi, poke a hole through both lungs, with an entrance and an exit, they die,,,,,
    More "This is what happened when I,,,,," and less "What would happen if I,,,,"

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  11. #11
    Boolit Grand Master

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    I want penetration so no matter what angle the shot is I capable, It then becomes my decision to pass or take the shot. A heavy for caliber bullet loaded to its best accuracy does the job normally. On medium and big game shocking isn't that effective as theres more animal and mass to absorb it. Ill bet the buffalo hit with the big sharps rifles hardly flinched when hit with that big slug at 1200 fps or so. Once you have a round that gets to the vitals or past depending on angle it then becomes a matter of accurately placing the shot where it needs to be.

  12. #12
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Ideally I want both. Expansion to dump most of the energy into the wound, and a hole out the other side. I feel overgunned using the .308 on deer as most of my shots are going to be under 150 yards and a FP .30/30 is plenty...but I want to be able to take that long shot down the power line if it presents itself. So I wind up loading HPBT 165's that hopefully do not come apart at 50 yards but will also have decent trajectory and expansion at 300 yards.
    Don Verna


  13. #13
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    Two holes get em leaking.

  14. #14
    Boolit Grand Master


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    Where I think energy dump has validity is with over powered rifle cartridges, especially in an area where other "hunters" are known to steal game you have shot. Thankfully I live in an area where people are respectful, can use nearly any caliber, and choose bullets for a complete pass through if possible. The only bullet that I've seen fail with my own eyes was a fancy pointed muzzleloader bullet that didn't expand. Deer run a long way with a pin hole. We have recovered all deer shot with a flat point, or any expanding bullet so far.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega View Post
    I've always felt that you needed both, a bullet that would expand enough to make a bigger hole, penetrate the vitals and exit. When the bullet dumps all its energy upon impact, there may not be enough left to penetrate, especially if the placement is less than optimal. I've shot deer or two where there was little blood sign, luckily the shot was good and they didn't go far. In one case, once I field dressed the deer, I found the bullet, almost intact as it had hit a bone at an oblique angle. The nose had deformed but not mushroomed, and had barely penetrated one wall of the heart. Another case, it went right through but the exit hole was such that there was not much of a trail, if it hadn't been a lung shot, I may have never found the neon trail. Which puts me in the camp of shot placement being #1, then expansion with penetration. I would guess that you need a boolit just hard enough to control expansion, so it can penetrate and exit, yet make a hole big enough for a blood trail.
    i couldn't say it better!!!!!!

  16. #16
    Boolit Master
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    Seems like everyone agrees on pass through. But i been thinking the higher the exit velocity the better, as long as you achieve that by sectional density rather than a less effective bullet shape. Because an exit wound should be larger from a higher velocity exit than say just squezing through far side hide at 450fps.

    Id say exceptions for aiming at energy dump is maybe if your one of the people who do neck shots to drop the deer, the deer drops from shock to the vascular and nervous system so close to the brain so penetration isnt such a big deal in that case. For chest shots i dont think stops from energy dump is reliable enough to be a worth while goal unless your 338 lapua'ing deer or 22-250'ing a coyote or something along that scale. But for stuff more like 44 mag hunting any design that would dump a good amount of energy would comprise heavily on penatration, not that it had a large amount of energy to begin with so might as well focus on penatration like a heavy WFN design.

  17. #17
    Boolit Grand Master


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    I've been using HPs in 30. 31, 8mm and 35 calibers for years killing deer, elk and sundry other critters getting great expansion and as far as penetration goes......I'd sure like to show y'all some of the expanded bullets I recovered that didn't penetrate out the other side and not leaving a nice bleeding exit wound but I can't as I haven't recovered any bullets yet..........because they all penetrated through and through.......

    That properly alloyed and HP'd cast bullets blow up w/o any penetration in deer and elk is a myth......
    Larry Gibson

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  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    Placement is absolute #1, then I want an exit hole and then if there is expansion then that's gravy. There are times when a well placed shot may fail to penetrate, to lightly constructed bullet or brittle hp, yielding only shallow damage. A friends son put a very fast 125gr from an 06 on a big bucks shoulder, they found him 2 months later,almost a mile away. Shoulder destroyed, no ribs broken due to bullet breakup.
    I have seen hydrostactic work, I have also seen a 120lb whitetail take a 300gr jhp 4570 Ruger level load and show NO sign of a hit till he plowed in after a 50 yard run. The bullet did not exit the chest cavity, the only thong left reconizable was the very bottom tip of the heart. All else forward of the diafram was blood pudding! Calculate the energy, 300gr at 2250fps,, deer did not react other than turn 180 degrees and dtart running! Perfect placement, total "energy dump" of 2000+ ftlbs, ran 50 yards.
    Place a well designed bullet in the vitals and break out the knife. That extra hole and bloodtrail is insurance for when the dead deer dosen't know he's dead and runs off into the nasty thick brush. As far a hp cast, my 375 winchester will put a 50:50 hp ene tp end thru a tennessee deer, build em right and they penertrate plenty.
    Last edited by rking22; 11-02-2018 at 09:41 PM.
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  19. #19
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    It’s not either/or. They aren’t mutually exclusive.
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  20. #20
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    If I know I’m going to be tracking I want two holes or more for the critter to leak blood. If I’m looking to drop the animal I want energy dump. My shot placement is going to be different also.
    Doug
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BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check