Pass through versus "Energy Dump"

[Markopolo]

Well, I must say, shot placement is paramount for me, as it is a rare thing to be able to find much blood at all where I live in the rainforest. Here, I forget about non existent blood trails and focus on penatration 1st, expansion second. A killing shot is a killing shot, but I try to take anchoring shots that will be DRT. The country is so so thick, that if I screw up on a deer or black bear, it could very well be gone for good. 3 or 4 hundred yards run from a bad shot might just as well be 3 miles. I have learned to bring insurance with me though, and almost always hunt with my dog. A well trained dog is every advantage, and she ques me in to all sorts of things I would have missed, and recovery is much more sure in case a shot is bad. Placement, penatration, and expansion leads to recovery. Anything else is a heck of a lot of work around here.

[Michael J. Spangler]

For those that like to read about terminal ballistics.

Here she is. The compendium.

Same applies for 4 legged creatures.

https://drive.google.com/drive/mobil...3pWYVVJeGlGaFE

[sharps4590]

Heavy for caliber bullets with a large meplat. When I have that I don't even consider expansion. After that, shot placement.

[Petander]

Big bullets make big holes. When they are long they also penetrate. No expansion helps if there is no penetration.

I hear people talking about energy dump. Well, I like Ballistic Tip in 300 WM for accuracy. But if I shoot a deer with it at 50yds it sure dumps all the energy within a couple of inches, practically exploding, and the poor critter will suffer.

Around 300 meters Ballistic Tip is an excellent whitetail bullet for 300WM,it penetrates and opens in a controlled way while being very accurate.

A big,fat,long,strong bullet also stops better. I would never rely on expansion or energy dump when hunting dangerous game. You want brute force big bore penetration for a charging animal.

FWIW I've been in a moose hunting club for 20+ years . Taken them with 30-06, 45-70, 338 Lapua, 9,3x62 , 300WM. Never used a 308 which is very common around here. And I sold the 30-06 around 2000... It is good for deer.

[fatnhappy]

I want 2 holes and a blood trail. It’s not too tall an order.

[Chad5005]

I prefer pass thru,shot a doe yesterday afternoon with a 308 shooting 150gr Hornady spbt at about 80 yards,the shot bust the heart in half and she bled good but ran almost 100 yards,entrance and exit were the size of a pencil,kind of concerned me a little but after skinning we found it never touched a bone

[Bloodman14]

I am looking for a through-and-through on deer-sized game, with as much energy transfer as I can get, given the caliber and bullet meplat; I want maximum energy dump into a human assailant.

[armednfree]

You don't want energy dump, you want energy dissipation within the animal. Dump would imply an instant delivery of all energy which would mean no penetration. Dissipation would imply energy delivery over a time period, Penetration.

As far as dump, when I first started deer hunting with a handgun I used a 180 grain Sierra HP pushed as fast as it would go from a 44mag Super Blackhawk. I shot a doe in the neck at 83 paces, she went about 75 yards bleeding heavily. When I found her I had to finish her. The wound on her neck was impressive, and shallow. I could see the jacket inside the wound. It did not fully penetrate her neck. Had I hit her square in the chest I question weather the bullet would have even taken out a single lung. I question weather I would have ever found her.

Then I switched to a 240 grain JHP. I killed two deer. One shot broadside fully penetrated yet the blood trail was rather sparse. The second taken at a facing away angle left a blood trail that was difficult to pick up and was almost too sparse to follow.

Then I went to a 300 grain cast on a whim. six deer killed with all but one that was shot down the pipe not retaining the bullet. Exit wounds were very good without being explosive and blood trails easy to follow. In fact most fell within sight.

I can no longer shoot the handguns due to a neurological problem in my hands that caused a 40% loss in grip strength. I shoot a rifle now and my still hunting rifle is a 45 colt. Three deer killed and no bullets recovered including one that hit on an angle and broke a shoulder. All rapid recoveries with the deer falling within sight.

As far as Meplat size, thing of a speed boat and it's pointy bow pushing the water aside. The think of a barge with its square bow and the water piling up in front.

[odfairfaxsub]

I’m not terribly scientific as some are here (you need sage science though to base my simpler explanations). A man named 44man (I actually loved that guy. Met him a few times and enjoyed every min spent w him and shooting w him and Vic who blessed me w meeting him) and I learned one thing from 44man......wide nose to dump lots of energy and heavy bullet to pass through all the way. I tried many things shooting many deer but the conclusion I came to was .430 or larger w wider noses than not have me really super easy kills. I tried narrow noses, hollow points of the right alloy and not right alloy, etc and my most favorable kills in the boiler room came from your larger nosed.430 or larger bullets. Killing can be done w all the calibers and all the designs. Best ones give you energy dump and penetration

[Distant Thunder]

First off bullets don't "DUMP" energy, that's a lie perpetuated by writers. Bullets transfer energy! To transfer a maximum amount of energy a bullet must have a blunt nose shape, whether by design (WFN) or through expansion (SP or HP), and it must maintain as much of it's impact velocity as possible as it passes through tissue. To maintain a maximum amount of the impact velocity a bullet must have length, mass behind the blunt nose pushing like hell and transferring energy as it passes. The more tissue the long blunt nosebullet passes through without stopping or slowing down anymore than it has to the greater the amount of energy that transferred to the greatest amount of tissue along it's path. The added benefit of this is duration of shock (energy transfer). This "duration" is rarely mentioned but plays a big role in the terminal effect of a bullet, killing power.

High velocity usually works against you in all the above. Moderate velocity kills, plain and simple. Just the facts.

[popper]

E=M v^2. If there is an exit, not all E is lost. E lost can be on water pushed aside, bone, expansion, etc. If it does what you want, OK. Duration in target only has an effect as the tissue shock wave response. Which is a function of E dissipated. Pointy vs flat nose do not determine wound channel, but a bigger exit may allow more blood loss.

[Harter66]

With laws ranging from ;
A 25ACP for deer in Maine , to
Nevada's 4" barrel of 24 or greater cal with a case length at least that of the Rem 44 magnum for hand guns ;
2" minimum OAL , 22 cal or greater and a minimum energy of 1000 ftlb @ 100 yd ;
We tend to have different opinions about delivery of the needed tissue disruption .
We all agree that the disruption needs to be in the proper place , whether that be the brain pan or boiler room .

Based on 20 or so Mule deer in the first person and 5 hogs by my hand I have concluded that there is such a thing as too much of a good thing . I don't care for the bone chips sprayed through out the shoulders and 4" exit holes . Which is what I've seen from everything in an 06' or larger case from 25-28 cal . 30 cal likes to leave less bone spray but still dollar sized exits .

I can't say for 32-34 cal but 35&45 seem to disrupt tissue without displacement of it .

High speed low drag and expansion to double dia sure wrecks a lot of tissue but as long as it's above the diaphragm the critter will likely be in a heap in pretty short order .

For hunting I cast everything to expand . As to yet I haven't used but a full power 30-30 in live game . A 135# hog went about 30 ft with a soft round nose .
I had a 45 Colts 454424 that left a full half inch exit in a hog . So I'd have to say I had some expansion .

BP has been killing stuff with dead soft RB for what 800 yr while generally stopping under the offside skin .

Conclusion ?
I got nothing .
Well sort of .
If you make a caliber entry hole and a half inch plus tunnel through the critical tissues the critters will die fairly rapidly . The exit is only important if you need to track , which should be a pretty short job if you put the bullet in the right place .

[Walks]

Back in the late 1930's my DAD was hired for "varmint" control by a Stockmen's Association. He shot coyote's & wolves from an airplane. He used a Win 94 in .25-35 with his own handloads. He rarely lost a case as he ejected the brass back into his hand. I know he used soft nose bullets from a Western tool company ? ? Just about every shot was a one shot kill.
Mounted Cowboys followed the trail of dead coyote's, picking up the carcasses for bounty. Rarely wasting a cartridge to finish off an animal.
He told me every shot was through & through.
My DAD was a heck off a RIFLE shot.

I've seen one case of pure Hydrostatic shock. I shot a 100lb Antelope at about 150yrds. I used a Weatherby .257 Mag with 100gr Sierra Spitzers. The bullet slipped between 2 ribs and blew the heart to mush before it stopped just under the skin. The little buck sorta of "bulged" for a second and his legs just folded and down he went.

[Iron Whittler]

For what it's worth, I have taken numerous deer and one big bull elk. All dropped where they were standing. No tracking required. SO---- Shot placement counts above all. If the hunter does their part, the bullet will put food on the table. If the hunter does not do their job, The outcome gets quite a bit shaky at best. My opinion is if you are to go hunting, you and your smoke pole should be married. By this I mean you can hit the mark Every time! If you are going to hunt, YOU THE HUNTER have an obligation to make a quick, humane kill on the game you are hunting. If you bang flop your game animal, blood trails and tracking are not needed. Practice with your favorite load as often as possible. Practice on pretty sunny days, pouring down rain, wind trying to blow you off your stand. The point being weather conditions are often far from the best, BUT YOU MUST still hit the mark. As for solids vs.. hollow points, Which ever one works for you and your favorite smoke pole. Put them where it counts and you got meat in the freezer. Iron

[BigBore45]

My ideal bullet would expand on a good shot and on a bad shot I'd like the shank to stay intact and push through.

[dave roelle]

Mr Gibson. My experience as well with hollow point cast bullets +++

[35 Whelen]

Energy never has and never will kill anything guys, it is merely a number by which we can compare ballistic qualities of similar caliber and weight bullets. High velocity .22 caliber bullets and low velocity large caliber handgun bullets can have very similar bullet energies, but obviously are worlds apart in how and what they are capable of killing.

35W