New rifle .40-65 chamber

[flatsguide]

This BPCR shooting is addictive. In the two Silouette, I don’t think I’ve been in the game long enough to call it silly-wette, matches I’ve shot I did pretty good, proving the adage that even a blind squirrel finds an acorn.
I’m shooting a Browning .45-70 that has proven to be very accurate with paper patch bullets but the recoil is leaving saucer size black and blue and I mean black and blue mark on my arm shoulder area. I’m on blood thinner so that may be the reason. So from what I have read, a .40-65 will knock the critters over just as well with a heavy 400 plus grain bullet with less recoil. With that said, MVA is making a 1885 action with a single set trigger for me, Ron Smith in Canada is making the barrel suggested by Coltsmoke. It will be in stainless later to be blued in .40 caliber, gain twist 1:14 taper bored and 28 inches. Ron Snover, my neighbor up the road will do the chambering and fitting and milling the octagon flats. I’ll do the drawfilling on the barrel, the rest of the metalwork and stocking. After the barrel is finished it will be sent out for stress relieving and blueing.
I would like to use Starline brass as it will have the correct headstamp. So the question, does any one have a .40-65 pp chamber drawing for Starline brass or gg drawing. Manson will be grinding the reamer or reamers. if I get a sizing die reamer too. I may have to draw up my own reamer to get the correct neck size to match the brass/bullet diameter size plus .004 spring back. Any info about the care and feeding re the 40-65 very welcome.
Ideas, suggestions and constructive criticism very welcome.
Thanks Richard

[Chill Wills]

Hook, Line and Sinker.

Welcome to the club.

[rfd]

richard, yer doomed. and that's a good thing.

[Don McDowell]

There's a ton of 40-65 chamber designs. Manson should have drawings for most of Dan Theodore's 40-65 chambers, along with others. Not sure who came up with C Sharps chamber design, but it works well with Scrapline brass and either patched or greasers.

[Lead pot]

Richard you can use my .40-65 drawing. It is for the Starline brass but it's a PP chamber only, it will not except a GG bullet. If you want to shoot a greaser you can enlarge the neck dimensions.
I had this CPA rifle build especially for the silhouette matches and it has a 14 ROT Douglas barrel on it but I haven't had time to work with this rifle. The last match I shot in September At Cadillac Mich. I used this rifle using rounds just filled with powder and bullets from new moulds hoping I had time to test before the match but this did not happen so I shot the match with what I had.

It started bad with only 4 sighter shots allowed and a 2 MOA 10 ring the last sighter went into the 9 ring and going for score then things went down hill into a 7 and 6 with 3 misses in a row and I ended up with a 40. The rear scope mount was loose and the scope fell off rear block on the last shot fired.
The second relay things went better and after three shots fired for the rest of the day I checked the rear screws and at times it took a 1/4 turn to tighten them again but I shot a 80 and 83 from the 600.
I used lock tire and let the rifle set over night and for the 500 things went better with 91/0--95/1---94/2. I think with some load development this will improve. I hust threw some Swiss and OE loads together with 64 grains each but different bullets for each powder loads. The Swiss 64 gr 1.5 F I used the Brooks prolate 393 gr 393 diameter 1.396 long at 600.

On the 500 I used 64 gr of 2F OE with the BA ellipticaL 415 gr 394 diameter 1.455 long. Now this is a custom mould I had Jim make with my specks,I have three moulds I ordered for this rifle and all three shoot good at 200 yards but need testing for longer ranges.

Attachment 229621

[Lead pot]

Forgot;
I normally order a sizing reamer for a uncommon chamber reamer like the original .44-75 Ballard chamber and make my own sizing die for forming proper cases for the chamber. This print above I did not make a reamer for it because I had a set of .40-65 Lyman dies and I ran some cases through the die and took measurements and all that needed to be done with the die was cutting the easy edge off the die mouth to tighten the base. The print shows a .502" ahead of the rim and it came .501" that is a little tighter then the Lyman die had.

[GregLaROCHE]

I don’t understand why so many people say the .45-70 has so much recoil. I’ve shot it for many years with hot smokeless loads and have never had anything to complain about.

It is very important to have it positioned properly in your shoulder tight, so there is no jump. If you have it against your arm and not in the proper shoulder spot you are sure to get a blue that will last for quite a while. This will happen even with less powerful calibers and cartridges.

[kokomokid]

Is your neighbor Ron Snover or Ron Long? My Ron Long 40-65 was a little picky due to tight neck and long free bore But a tack driver when I got the load worked out. I use a Shooters Friend slip on recoil pad on my 45-70 and larger.

[Gunlaker]

You might want to hold off on the reamer and bullet until you get the barrel. I have several of Ron Smith's barrels. Some of them have much tighter bores than what you might expect. They do shoot very well though.

Chris.

[flatsguide]

I don’t understand why so many people say the .45-70 has so much recoil. I’ve shot it for many years with hot smokeless loads and have never had anything to complain about.

I don't either Greg...A bunch of girly men I think. LOL
Ron Snover is my neighbor, But Ron Long and I were freinds in Denver many years ago and we shot muzzle loaders then. Fond memories, that was in the early '70s.

[Lincoln Creek]

I don’t understand why so many people say the .45-70 has so much recoil. I’ve shot it for many years with hot smokeless loads and have never had anything to complain about.

No disrespect intended, but take your hot smokeless powder loads(loaded with a 540 grain bullet)and lay down prone and shoot 15 rounds in 12 minutes. Do that again and again until you’ve shot 60 rounds.
Then when you get up the next morning do the same exact thing. If you don’t have a recoil pad on your rifle, you will have a bruise.

[indian joe]

I don't either Greg...A bunch of girly men I think. LOL
Ron Snover is my neighbor, But Ron Long and I were freinds in Denver many years ago and we shot muzzle loaders then. Fond memories, that was in the early '70s.

Had a little sharps carbine - skinny little stock - 8 pound rifle - steel buttplate - prone with 525 postell and a sharp load of FFFg - ya might change yr mind about girly! It dont take 60 either - nor a hot smokeless load - that caper stopped bein fun from about shot no 2.
I have about got it fixed now
No matter how big a hero anyone is with recoil - nobody is gonna consistently shoot to their potential with something that hurts -- prone is the bit that hurts - that puts ya in the chiropractors office .

[flatsguide]

Indian joe....lighten up that was a lighthearted put down. I’ve shot .460 Weatherby’s prone, 577 nitro express my backup rifle was a nine pound prewar magnum length Mod 70 action in .450 Ackley mag at nine pounds I don’t flinch my mind goes beyond recoil for the most part but it does get to you physically No need to be over gunned. In fact if I stay healthy I have a long range rifle based on a ..45-90. Now back to the .40-65.

[indian joe]

Indian joe....lighten up that was a lighthearted put down. I’ve shot .460 Weatherby’s prone, 577 nitro express my backup rifle was a nine pound prewar magnum length Mod 70 action in .450 Ackley mag at nine pounds I don’t flinch my mind goes beyond recoil for the most part but it does get to you physically No need to be over gunned. In fact if I stay healthy I have a long range rifle based on a ..45-90. Now back to the .40-65.

I wasnt bein perticulerly serios there - looks like we use our language different south of the equator .
If you shot 460 weatherby prone more n a couple times - u either quite crazy or built like the proverbial brick dunny or some combination thereof

While we are on this what about the 40/82? original 1886 was a lighter boolit round but no reason with appropriate twist that this case couldnt handle say 400 to 450grainers ? Reason I ask is a friend has the reamer and would do the work - that little sharps could stand a new barrel - we (Aussies ) are gonna wake up one morning and no longer able to get a barrel in the mail like can now (local manufactured ) I am not serious enough shooter to do the paper patch thing I think - GG loads in 40-82 would/should have similar reach to a 40-65 shooting PP? -- 45-90 brass not cheap but not so difficult to find either and forming to 40/82 no big deal . There must be something wrong with this idea? not many blokes talk about it? what do ya reckon???
No hero here but recoil in a twelve pound rifle in this calibre should be ok - am shooting a 45/75 with 500 grain bolits at the moment
(10 pound gun) not expecting to become a cripple any time soon from that!

[flatsguide]

Kurt, thanks for that print of the chamber and you thoughts and suggestions. I ordered that mold from BACo. The JIK 395415. I’m going to wait and find out what the actual bore diameter is before ordering the reamers as Gunlsker suggested. Thanks Chris.

[GregLaROCHE]

I didn’t mean to start a controversy. I admit, I don’t shoot prone much and certainly not 60 in a row.

Has there ever been a device built that tested the amount of recoil from various rifles and loads?

[country gent]

I believe Guns and Ammo had a crude test of a very few rifles many years ago. The Author made cart on wheels with a rifle mount on it. rifle were mounted and fired the amount the cart rolled back was measured. Like I said a very rough test but it did answer some questions. Another way to see this go to a benchrest match where the Iron monsters are competing these are return to battery rifles remotely fired with a remote cameras trigger and recoil on a set of rails. watch how far they move when fired. The old external scopes will also show recoil with their movement in the rings if the spring is removed from them. My MVA Malcomb style scopes move in the rings when fired ( this is from memory) 45-90 2 1/2-3" , 45-70 2"- 2 3/4" these are both with 550 grn bullets. 40-65 moves 1/12"-2" with the 400 grn and 38-55 is around 1 1/4-1 1/2".

I tooo have shot 45-90,45-70,40-65 and 38-55 on a days shilouette match. After 60 -70 rds with the 45-90 and 550 grn bullets Im beat and sore. My partner is driving home. The 45-70 is quite as bad but is right up there. If it weren't for the breaks scoring for the next relay and change overs I might not make it thru with these. I don't flinch but the concentration to not and the actual recoil levels are physically draining. The 40-65 is better here with the 400 grn bullets and I have "more" left in me at the end of the day. This shows on the ram scores too. And last is the 38-55 that's is a dream to shoot and use for the day. recoil is next to nothing with the 460 grn bullets performance is good and the ram scores are up more at the end of the day. My rifles are all in the 11 1/2lb to 12lb range. I shoot a MVA Malcomb scope most of the time.

[Gunlaker]

Kurt, thanks for that print of the chamber and you thoughts and suggestions. I ordered that mold from BACo. The JIK 395415. I’m going to wait and find out what the actual bore diameter is before ordering the reamers as Gunlsker suggested. Thanks Chris.

Just to give you an example, I have two RKS barrels in .38 cal that I shoot breech seated PP bullets in. The first is an older barrel and takes a .363" bullet wrapped in Seth Cole 55W which fits snugly. The second, recently built, one can use that bullet but requires a mechanical seater with a lot of force to seat the bullet. As far as I can tell the bore is 0.365" which is super tight for a .38.

I'm sure you will like the barrel though. I don't know anyone who has one that is not very happy with it.

The rifle you are building sounds perfect for the job!

Chris.

[Chill Wills]

I'm sure you will like the barrel though. I don't know anyone who has one that is not very happy with it.
Chris.

Chris, are you shooting any Ron Smith gain twist barrels for use in BPCR silhouette? What has been your experience getting them where you are happy with the accuracy.
Are they any more accurate than a regular twist barrel (in your opinion)

Gain twist barrels make up a very small minority out there -specifically BPCR Silhouette- and the few riflemen that report to on them review mixed.

I have a Stainless Steel take off barrel, Ron Smith gain twist 31 to 16 45cal. I am not sure what it is going to be on or just sold.

Flatsguide, consider a regular barrel as a almost sure deal accuracy wise. Of course a little risk and trying something out of the ordinary and then making it work is fun too. I just thought I would bring this up for consideration as well as my learning from Chris's experience would make aother data point for me too.

BTW - we likely know a lot of the same names from Denver ML days. Many of them moved into the early Denver Gateway range BPCR Silhouette matches in the eighties where I met them.

[indian joe]

I didn’t mean to start a controversy. I admit, I don’t shoot prone much and certainly not 60 in a row.

Has there ever been a device built that tested the amount of recoil from various rifles and loads?

Greg
No controversy -- we just havin a bit of fun
There is a calculator free to use on the net someplace - feed in boolit weight - powder charge - velocity - weight of the rifle - it gives a pretty fair comparison - other things being equal (which they often are not) - felt recoil is often a different thing than actual though - good stock design for the event in question, proper fit to the individual shooter, all makes a difference -- I dont rate the 45/70 at blackpowder level as a serious problem but mine had a bunch of things wrong. Shooting prone really is the killer - mine would get me down my spine several days after a match (I am only 5'8"and almost 70 not in as good physical shape as I should be) . Most of us can take a fair jolt standing or sitting even - the body can move with the recoil.
Perception is part of this, I had the opportunity (visiting the midwest) to shoot a friends S&W 500 handgun, only 360 grain factory loads, was pleasantly surprised, its a big pistol well designed, I only took 5 rounds with me, (worse luck!), wasnt scared of it but I took it seriously, and I did ok, didnt think that was any big deal but I see ijits on utube with long barrl versions of that same gun and cant control it at all