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Thread: What's the deal with 7.62x25 Tokarev?

  1. #1
    Boolit Master am44mag's Avatar
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    What's the deal with 7.62x25 Tokarev?

    This is more of a rant than anything.

    Trying to pay around with this awesome little rounds is starting to get annoying. Reloading data is almost nonexistent, and most online data is labeled "CZ-52 ONLY". I own a Romanian TT-C (TT-33 clone) BTW. The data in the Lyman 49th manual pairs it with the 7.63x25 Mauser, which is a lower pressure round. As such, the data is what I would consider anemic. The 93gr FMJ data maxes out at just over 1300 FPS. When you can get factory 85gr ammo that hits 1700 FPS, I find that unacceptable. You wouldn't limit 38 Super to 38 ACP levels, so why on earth would you do that for the Tokarev? It's high velocity is what makes it such a cool and effective round.

    Back to the CZ-52 issue. From what I can find, the idea that it's somehow stronger than the TT-33 dates back to the 70s when some gun writer in their infinite wisdom decided to make that claim. After that, it spread like wildfire because after all "if it's in a gun magazine, it MUST be true!". From what I and others can find, that's really not the case. The roller lock system is stronger, but the gun itself is not. Apparently the CZ-52 has a problem of going "bang, bang, boom!" far more often than the TT-33 does. Maybe because idiots believe it can handle hotter ammo? I dunno. Either gun won't handle a diet of sub gun ammo for long. I see absolutely no reason why the TT-33 can't handle the same standard 7.62 Tokarev loading that the CZ-52 can.

    Anybody else tired of reloading sources watering down their data? I've heard that the Hornady manual has REAL 7.62x25 Tokarev data, and better than that, they have it for the .309" 90gr XTPs that I like to use. I guess I will pick up a copy. The amount of lawyer interference (watering down), and misinformation on the web is just getting old.

    Ok, rant over. I feel better now, lol.
    ______________________________________________
    Aaron

  2. #2
    Boolit Master

    Rcmaveric's Avatar
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    Thats the only load in the Hornady 9th Edition. Pm sent.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    "Speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far."
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  3. #3
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    This article condensed from The Fouling Shot is cross-posted for you with the author's permission:

    Tales from the Back Creek Diary
    Feeding the Пистолет браконьера (Pistolet brakon'year) “Poacher’s pistol;”
    Tokarev TT33 in 7.62x25mm

    ...While intended to replace the M1895 Nagant revolver, the Tokarev never completely did so during WW2. Red Army practice was to issue Tokarevs to Army officers in front line units and to make Nagant revolvers more readily available to “loyal” soldiers as rewards, and as badges of authority to NCOs, political officers, police and Communist Party officials.

    Over 1.7 million TT33s were produced by Soviet arsenals before production ceased in 1954. Variants of the TT33 were produced in Poland, Yugoslavia, Romania and China well into the 1980s. The total output of pistols from all satellite countries exceeded 3 million. Tokarev pistols remain in service in countries under Russian influence and with Russian para military units to this day. The TT is often presented in Russia as an award for distinguished service. It is still carried by court bailiffs, couriers, bank guards, delivery and security services. Its ubiquity makes it especially popular among criminals and poachers...

    The 7.62x25 Russian cartridge was adapted by the Soviets from the earlier M1896 7.63mm Mauser round... In 1930, the Soviet Union adopted the Mauser cartridge, under the designation 7.62 mm Type P, for the Tokarev TT-30 and TT-33 automatic pistols, and later for the PPD-40, PPSh-41, and PPS-43 submachineguns. Besides FMJ ball cartridges, API and tracer rounds were loaded by the Soviets during WW2 for submachinegun use. Bullet diameter was .307-.309” and weight 85-88 grains. W.H. B. Smith lists Russian P-Ball at 1378 fps from the TT33 Tokarev pistol, based upon the Soviet Red Army specification of 420 +/- 10 m/s... This agrees with modern tests of surplus ammo.

    Hatcher's Textbook of Pistols and Revolvers (1935) described the 7.63 Mauser as developing 1300 fps. This was based upon US commercial ammunition loaded to a maximum average pressure of 29,000 psi. WW1 and WW2 German military loads approached 1400 fps from the Mauser M96 with 5.5-inch (14cm) barrel, according to contemporary sources. Hatcher stated that their penetration was eleven 7/8" pine boards, versus 5 boards for the .32-20 Winchester, .32 ACP, .38 Special and .45 Colt. The .45 ACP and .44-40 each penetrated 8 boards while the .38/.44 High Velocity, 9mm Luger, and .38 Colt Auto did nine. Only the .38 Super and .357 Magnum matched the Mauser's ELEVEN boards.

    While dimensionally similar, the Tokarev cartridge has a shorter neck and operates at higher chamber pressure, than CIP specifications for the 7.63 Mauser, (36,250 vs. 30,600 psi.) WW2-era and later Soviet "burp gun ammo" is too hot to fire in the M96 “Broomhandle.” Doing so is like feeding the old girl a steady diet of proof loads! Yugo Privi Parisan (PPU) 7.62x25mm commercial ammo approximates Red Army service ballistics, about 1400 fps.

    Starline warns hand loaders not to use .30 Mauser brass in a Tokarev. This is because its 0.03” longer neck impinges against the origin of rifling in the shorter Tokarev chamber, spiking pressure and tearing case mouths off!...

    Both the Czech and Russian pistol designs are entirely suitable for 7.62x25 loads at loaded to full CIP-MAP and are quite strong enough for any sensible load. Sound CZ52, Tokarev and Combloc copies are quite safe with military surplus and commercial ammunition, including the Czech Sellier & Bellot, which in my chronograph tests approaches 1700 fps fired in the Cz52 with 4.7-inch barrel.

    In previous testing PPU (Yugo Privi Partisan)FMJ ammo shot to point of aim from my Cz52 at 25 yards. An average of ten 8-shot groups averaged 3.5 inches, with the largest group 4.6" and the smallest 2.9" This is fairly typical accuracy for fixed sight military handguns firing service ammunition. PPU ammo chronographed 1414 fps in my Cz52 and 1421 fps in the TT33. I fired corrosive Romanian “P” ball manufactured by Factory number 22 in 1984 as a benchmark. This attained an impressive 1461 fps from the TT33 pistol and over 1900 fps from a rebarrelled Remington Model 722 with 20” barrel.

    Reloading 7.62x25 is easy, thanks to affordable brass of high quality brass from Starline, and Lee dies. There is no need to frustrate yourself cutting down, resizing and neck reaming 5.56mm/.223 brass to feed your Пистолет браконьера or Pistolet brakon'year (Poacher’s Pistol).

    Before loading for your 7.62x25 pistol you will want to make a chamber cast. Measure both chamber neck and ball seat diameter. There is wide variation in chamber diameters in the east bloc stuff and groove diameters ranging up to .315. I've never seen a 7.62x25 barrel smaller than .308” groove diameter, but I have seen chamber necks as small as .330” which precluded loading bullets of diameter larger than .308”!

    A charge of 5 grains of Bullseye was recommended by Hatcher for the 7.63 (.30) Mauser. It is also listed by Lyman. This starting load won’t cycle 100% in my Cz52 or the TT33 with the Accurate 31-087B, but does with the heavier 31-100T. RCBS Little Dandy Rotor #10 meters an actual weight averaging of 5.3 grains of with current Alliant from my measure and cycles both pistols reliably with either bullet. Velocity approximates PPU at 1400 fps with Accurate 31-087T, or 087B and 1370 fps with 31-100T. It approximates the .30 Mauser at 1300 fps with the 90 grain Hornady XTP...

    Having the bullet base protrude below the neck-shoulder junction does not cause problems when jacketed bullets are loaded when slower-burning powders such as #2400 are used which completely fill the case. With fast-burning powders and loading cast bullets recommended practice is to avoid deep-seated bullets to minimize risk of gas cutting and bullet base deformation. Good results are easily obtained with bullets optimized for the 7.62x25 such as the Accurate 31-087B and 31-100T...

    A charge of 7.4 grains was metered using RCBS Little Dandy measure rotor #9 which meters the 5.0 grain start load with Bullseye. This proved satisfactory giving 1353 fps with the Hornady 86-grain SP and 1450 fps with Accurate 31-100T.

    Water jug tests with the Hornady XTP were impressive, blowing the first gallon jug to smithereens in a manner similar to 110-grain .357 Magnum loads. The XTP bullet expands to about .50 caliber, stopping in the third gallon jug, denting its far side, not exiting. This is entirely adequate penetration for a defense load. PPU FMJ loads shoot clear through a 40-inch stack of water jugs and whistled through the trees downrange, as would be expected.

    Test firing my 1952 Polish copy of the TT33 there were no surprises. Point of impact firing PPU FMJ with its fixed sights was about inch high at seven yards, two inches high at 25 yards, four inches high at 50 yards and “dead on” at 100 yards. Sandbagged, handheld groups were about 3 inches at 25 yards, cast loads a bit better. All manner of cast bullets of various shapes fed reliably, even the Accurate 31-095T which has a ” meplat! The advantage of a bottlenecked case! The start load from Lyman, 5 grains of Bullseye bobbled about 30% with 85-87-grain bullets, but cycled reliably with Accurate 31-100T. Increasing charges to 5.3 grains ran every cast bullet tested!!!

    The RCBS Little Dandy measure Rotor #13 measures about 11 grains of Alliant #2400 which cycled the guns well. Velocity was 1277 fps from the TT pistol with the 93-grain Norma .307” FMJRN, and 1777 fps from the Remington 722. Plainbased cast bullets of 13 BHN alloy did not lead severely, and shot well in the pistol.

    Data are summarized in the accompanying table below:

    Table 1 – Velocity Test Data for 7.62x25 in TT3 Pistol Vs. 20” Rifle - Handloads in Starline cases with CCI500 primers

    Ammunition Description_________________Vel@15ft., Sd, ES n=10
    ____________________________________TT33, 4.6”_______________Rem. 722, 20”
    Romanian Type P Ball, Factory 22, 1984____1461 fps, 27 Sd, 76ES_____1903 fps, 17 Sd, 50 ES
    Yugoslav PPU Ball,_____________________1410, 26 Sd, 66ES________1684, 15 SD, 50 ES
    Hornady 86-grain SP, 7.4 grs. AutoComp___1353, 20, 71_____________1872, 17, 51
    Accurate 31-100T, 7.4 grs. AutoComp_____1450, 16, 50_____________1846, 13,40, severe leading when fired in rifle
    Accurate 31-087B, 5.3 grs. Bullseye_______1433, 28, 71_____________1567, 18, 62, light leading when fired in rifle
    Accurate 31-087B, 10.8 grs. #2400________1321, 11, 32____________1821, 11, 27, moderate leading when fired in rifle
    Norma 93-gr. FMJRN .307”, 10.8 grs.#2400__1277, 18, 44____________1777, 25, 46, Very accurate in all guns tested.
    __________________________________________________ ______________________________________________
    Last edited by Outpost75; 10-31-2018 at 10:33 AM.
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  4. #4
    Boolit Master
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    There is data if you dig around. I have been using power pistol in mine. Yea those slow magnum powders like H110 work, maybe more so in a sub gun. Pistol its just muzzle flash and blast. The strength thing just suddenly became true at some point in the past. How many have actually blown up a TT33? Not heard about it, but actually blown up? Apparently the rollers makes the CZ a weaker gun, they always give out where the recesses are machined in for the rollers. Come on the TT33 is mostly a copy of a 1911, not often those are called 'weak'. Its just the old caution when it comes to surplus guns.

    I worked out a cast load for mine. Comes out as a 117gr solid or 104gr HP, NOE mold. Powder coated w a gas check they can be driven pretty hard. Even a convenient crimp groove to avoid set back. 6.5gr of unique gave me 1356fps w the 104gr. Tried AA#9 but only 1103fps. 7.3gr of Power pistol w the 117gr got me 1441fps.

    Im shooting mine in a Romanian tokarev and a 1911. The cast bullet load fits in a 38 super mag.

  5. #5
    Boolit Buddy
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    Tackleberry....which 1911 kit are you using for the 7.62 conversion?

    Thanks...Bob

  6. #6
    Boolit Grand Master Texas by God's Avatar
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    A 1911 in 7.62 Tokarev would be a great pistol. I wish I'd had one back when surplus ammo was so cheap- instead of the weird CZ52 and Tokarev.
    But they were fun, too.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    It was just a drop in barrel. Guess it was J&G sales i got it, looks like one they sell now is ramped vs old style. 1911 you can adjust the recoil spring, faster powders you do not end up flinging them to the next county. I can get a little more velocity using the traditional powders. But with all the extra flash and blast to go with it. Power pistol works well.

    Factory ammo wont run in a 1911, only fit 3 in the mag, to long. I had some jacketed XTP loads I shortened enough, adjusted the load data. But the NOE bullet, is alot shorter so fit fine. NOE had 2 one with a longer nose, did some measuring went with the short nosed one. You can put a nice heavy roll crimp on them so set back is not an issue.

  8. #8
    Boolit Buddy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tackleberry41 View Post
    It was just a drop in barrel. Guess it was J&G sales i got it, looks like one they sell now is ramped vs old style. 1911 you can adjust the recoil spring, faster powders you do not end up flinging them to the next county. I can get a little more velocity using the traditional powders. But with all the extra flash and blast to go with it. Power pistol works well.

    Factory ammo wont run in a 1911, only fit 3 in the mag, to long. I had some jacketed XTP loads I shortened enough, adjusted the load data. But the NOE bullet, is alot shorter so fit fine. NOE had 2 one with a longer nose, did some measuring went with the short nosed one. You can put a nice heavy roll crimp on them so set back is not an issue.
    I have that barrel and really like it in my 1911. I use 38 super mags and haven't had any trouble loading them.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
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    Getting back to the Op's rant (and it's an appropriate rant in my opinion) I think a lot of the problem comes from the fact that the Mauser cartridge and the Tokarev cartridge being externally similar. Anyone with half a brain knows those two cartridges are not the same in terms of pressures but lots of things in our society are geared towards people with less than half a brain.

    As for the Soviet TT pistols and their Communist Block clones, they are very strong pistols.
    The roller locked CZ-52 is also a strong pistol.
    I agree with the OP that the TT-33 and the CZ-52 can both handle the Tokarev cartridge.

    I think Outpost75's post is very helpful and right on point.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master
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    I am making ammo for a fellow shooters broom handle with shoulder stock. 5 grs. bullseye and remington’s 93 gr. bullet intended for the 30 Luger. Cycles perfect and is amazingly accurate.

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  12. #12
    Boolit Master am44mag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Texas by God View Post
    A 1911 in 7.62 Tokarev would be a great pistol. I wish I'd had one back when surplus ammo was so cheap- instead of the weird CZ52 and Tokarev.
    But they were fun, too.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
    I love my little Tokarev. Much more than the CZ-52 I used to have. It just seems to be a better and simpler design. They are definitely attention getters with that incredibly loud report though. You'll only make the mistake of not wearing ear protection ONCE.

    Quote Originally Posted by Petrol & Powder View Post
    Getting back to the Op's rant (and it's an appropriate rant in my opinion) I think a lot of the problem comes from the fact that the Mauser cartridge and the Tokarev cartridge being externally similar. Anyone with half a brain knows those two cartridges are not the same in terms of pressures but lots of things in our society are geared towards people with less than half a brain.

    As for the Soviet TT pistols and their Communist Block clones, they are very strong pistols.
    The roller locked CZ-52 is also a strong pistol.
    I agree with the OP that the TT-33 and the CZ-52 can both handle the Tokarev cartridge.

    I think Outpost75's post is very helpful and right on point.
    I'm of the opinion that we should just let stupidity sort itself out. Neither round is what I'd call common, and those broom handle Mausers aren't exactly cheap and plentiful like the Tokarev or the CZ-52. You have to seek out the gun, the ammo and the information to reload for them. Shoving a 7.62 Tokarev in a 7.63 Mauser would have to take a determined act of stupidity. Lawyers will be lawyers though. Unfortunately, they're the ones that write the books.
    ______________________________________________
    Aaron

  13. #13
    Boolit Buddy
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    the tok to me feels like a 1911 in my hand. i sold m cz52 and kept the tok. NEVER HEARD of either one blowing up, even with hot factory ammo.

  14. #14
    About 10-15 years ago, a guy over on gun boards did some destructive testing with a TT-33 and a CZ-52. The CZ blew up before the Tokarev did. He surprised the hell out of us, and if I recall, he even posted pictures. Now, that is not definitive testing. But he was absolutely convinced that the Tokarev was the stronger pistol, and loaded it up as hot as he could. I would stick to load data from reputable sources, but I wouldn't be overly concerned with comments about CZ-52 only loads.

    -Mb

  15. #15
    Boolit Master am44mag's Avatar
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    After playing around with some hot H110 loads, I'd have to agree. The gun handled them just fine. It was a blast to shoot too. Those full power 7.62 Tok rounds sure do make a lot of noise and a pretty impressive fireball.
    ______________________________________________
    Aaron

  16. #16
    Boolit Master
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    Guess I need to play with mine, see how heavy a bullet you can use before the twist is not enough. The NOE mold I bought, makes some really short tokarev rounds, so more room in the mag for lead. Mold is 117gr if cast solid.

    As for what fits in a mag, probably depends. Some S&B 7.62T I have, 3 will fit in a mag before they jam up, to long. Another brand or HP might fit better in a 38 super mag. I just adjusted some 90gr XP data so they could be seated deeper and fit 9 in a mag.

    A tokarev is pretty tough. I tried to convert some brass berdan primed cases to be able to use them again. Weakened the case, blew out the bottom down into the mag. Grips came off, wrecked the mag, even jammed the gun up. New mag, fix the grips and it still works.

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    I Love 311-93-1R 6 LEE-6 PC'd over BE

  18. #18
    Boolit Buddy
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    Well 13gr of Win 296/Hornady 86gr SP or 90gr HP hits bang on in my unissued Polish TT33 off bags at 15 yards a quarter sized group with fixed sights.Starline brass.Yes it does.
    The lee 93 gr I haven't worked a load yet for the Tokarev but use the bullet in a 7.62x39 CZ 527 for grouse on top of 2.7gr of Bullseye.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check