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Thread: Most people ARE NOT baking PC long enough

  1. #81
    Boolit Mold
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    It seems to me that there may be a range of times and temperatures that work satisfactorily, and may not be as critical as we may think. I would suggest that you use the recommendation of the powder manufacturer or distributor. If that works for you, keep doing it. I would also suggest that you buy an oven thermometer to check your oven. Mine needs to be set at 300 degrees to bake at 400 degrees.

  2. #82
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by redfir View Post
    It seems to me that there may be a range of times and temperatures that work satisfactorily, and may not be as critical as we may think. I would suggest that you use the recommendation of the powder manufacturer or distributor. If that works for you, keep doing it. I would also suggest that you buy an oven thermometer to check your oven. Mine needs to be set at 300 degrees to bake at 400 degrees.
    When I was learning all I could about PC one of the first questions I asked was, "Is there wiggle room in the time & temperature?" The answer was, "Yes there is, but it can vary with the polymer and the additives, but it you cure according to the powder's schedule you can be assured the polymer will achieve the proper cure."
    Quite frankly, that answer from a person who knew more about polymers that everyone here and on You Tube put together, was good enough for me and I have followed it for all these years.

  3. #83
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    It's easy to test for PC sticking to the boolit, hammer it flat and if it chips/flakes it fails.
    Most people do this test.

    After passing this test the odd of it shooting well are excellent.

    The test that most people DO NOT DO is --- does the baked PC react to the smokeless powder your using.

    If you always store your cartridges nose up and don't have compressed loads you'll probably not have a problem.

    over time (this would vary by the smokeless powder and how well cured the PC is) some smokeless powder can/will cause PC that is not fully cured to melt/soften.

    I have yet to see a FULLY CURED (baked to the manufacturers' specifications) be affected by smokeless powder.

    IF I'm going to spend the time casting, coating and loading a bunch of cartridges for later use, I want to be 100% sure they will all go Bang like when they were new!!!

    What are 10/15/20 MORE minutes bake time in the overall picture for the insurance it offers.

    We all hate pulling the trigger and not having the gun go bang or be as accurate as we know the load can be.

    Would you quit trimming your rifle cases because they still shoot and it's faster not to trim them?

    Now I digress

    my 2¢

  4. #84
    Boolit Master
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    Well, that's a good post. My thoughts exactly. We do many things and spend a good bit of money for our reloading. Why does it seem like an extraordinary burden to get the temp and time right when doing PC?? There are vids all over ScrewgunsTube about "Faster quicker easier Powder Coating". I just don't get it.

    Play with your phone, your computer, or yourself for that extra few minutes while the boolits bake, and you'll never miss the "lost" time.....

    Vettepilot
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  5. #85
    Boolit Master trixter's Avatar
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    I live about 2 stone throws from Northwest Industrial Coatings. They make 'Prismatic Powders'. Has anyone tried their powders? They have some very cool colors.

    Let me know, please.

  6. #86
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by trixter View Post
    I live about 2 stone throws from Northwest Industrial Coatings. They make 'Prismatic Powders'. Has anyone tried their powders? They have some very cool colors.

    Let me know, please.
    When I got into PC back in 2012 I spoke with and visited several professional PC companies, (not bullets) attempting to learn all I could about the polymers and process. When I asked what powder they recommended and three different professionals recommended Prismatic that was goo enough for me. Prismatic sells over 6K colors of various polymers all top of the line powders, but not all are suitable for tumble coating; professional applicators primarily spray. If you stay with the solid color powders they give excellent results tumble coating, but yellows can have a problem with single coating, but that holds true will yellow paints also.

    Prismatic has lots of sales and discounts for overruns or discontinued powders all of which work great if you spray. My favorite tumble colors are Tractor Green, Plumb Purple, Blue Streak, Really Red, Bright Green, etc. Bright Chrome is excellent for spray. Excellent company and excellent service whether you buy one pound or a hundred. check them out online.

    But don't overlook Smoke who sell powder on this site, he has some nice colors and they all work with tumble coat.

  7. #87
    Boolit Master 45r's Avatar
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    If you want to coat your boolits after they been done for while do you cost them for 20 minutes like the first time.

  8. #88
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    If you want to do 2 coats of PC, I'd suggest only baking the first coat until the PC flows, let the boolits get cool enough to handle bare handed then do the second coat.
    Then you coat the boolits for the full time the manufacturer recommends (10, 15, 20) min AFTER the boolits have reached the prescribed temperature or after the PC starts flowing depending on what brand of PC you are using.

    To be on the safe side I would go 20 min after the PC flows or 25 min total.

    The second/any coat requires full manufacturer recommended bake time. If you do as recommended above you'll get a better bond between the 2 coats and don't have to bake the first coat more than a few minutes, the second bake will cure both coats.

  9. #89
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by Conditor22 View Post
    If you want to do 2 coats of PC, I'd suggest only baking the first coat until the PC flows, let the boolits get cool enough to handle bare handed then do the second coat.
    Then you coat the boolits for the full time the manufacturer recommends (10, 15, 20) min AFTER the boolits have reached the prescribed temperature or after the PC starts flowing depending on what brand of PC you are using.

    To be on the safe side I would go 20 min after the PC flows or 25 min total.

    The second/any coat requires full manufacturer recommended bake time. If you do as recommended above you'll get a better bond between the 2 coats and don't have to bake the first coat more than a few minutes, the second bake will cure both coats.
    Just to be clear I'm not trying to ....be argumentative or cause anything .

    Is this "cook to flow, recoat and cook to MFG time-temp instructions" a common practice suggested by the mfg ?? It might be way better or way worse than a full double application and baking process.

    I know for some conventional paints/stains/varnish and such there are some strict instructions about the timing of successive coats, for example recoat between 1 and two hours, if it goes past 2 hours then 24 hours drying time before a recoat....just throwing that out there as an example, the chemistry allows the 2 or more coats to cure together, if you wait too long then you have to let what is on there fully cure before applying more....again this is stuff like paints and stains....Brownells Aluma Hyde has some quirks like that if I recall correctly.

    Bill
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  10. #90
    Boolit Master trixter's Avatar
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    Thank you for the info, that really helped me.

  11. #91
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    If you want to multi-coat and have the coats flow together you do a partial cure on the first coat/s the a full cure on the last coat. When the polymer has reached full cure and has cooled then the chemical process is finished. However, the lead alloy continues to harden with age.

    Eastwood is the only company that has put in writing "start timing after flow and cook for 20 minutes". THIS IS FLAT WRONG! i have stated this and why in several posts, but some continue to post this fallacy as fact and this is truly a disservice to those new to the process.

    Eastwood does not manufacture powder, they are mainly a tool vendor. The powder manufactures cure schedule states for most powders, "10 minutes once the substrate reaches 400 degrees". Most powders start to flow at approximately 150 degrees so that means to come to the curing temperature 250 more degrees is needed.

    Common sense, which seems to be increasing in short supply now days, will tell you that all ovens do not heat at the same rate, so how can Eastwood put a flat number of 20 minutes for cure? which basically says, "every oven will obtain an additional 250 degrees in 10 minutes", assuming the additional 10 minutes is needed for cure.

    Are the heating elements, insulation, power, materials and size for all of these cheap toaster ovens the same? Of course not! Not even the commercial ovens are identical. So how can Eastwood say they will all perform the same?

    What about load? Any house wife can tell you it is going to take longer to cook a 20 pound turkey than a 12 pound turkey. Would she put a 20 pound turkey in the oven and give it the same amount of time as the 12 pound turkey? Why not, because because she knows the 20 pound turkey would not be cooked. The reason it would not be cooked is simple, "LOAD", one of the basic principles of thermodynamics. With the same power it is going to take longer to reach temperature when the mass is increased. The same principal applies to bullets. Maybe this Eastwood cook for 20 minutes works for small loads, assuming one has an oven that can struggle up to 400, but to use this across the board is just plain wrong.

    I think the purpose of this site should be to dispels ignorance and give those new to the PC process correct information. So once again I will pass on, follow the POWDER MANUFACTURES cure schedule for powder curing and not some vendor that sells tools or someone on YouTube that has an agenda of making money when you view their post.

    Also to dispel more ignorance; The "smash test" of hammering a bullet flat, does not indicate the powder has reached full cure. It does do a good job of demonstrating the elasticity and bond of the powder, but does not indicate that full cure hardness has been reached.

  12. #92
    Boolit Buddy
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    Elvis Ammo doesn't fallow this schedule and he gets a great coat that does exactly what he wants. I tried 400* for 20 and I had several pairs of bullets permanently welded together. I'm not gonna sit around and stand each of my 9mm bullets up.

  13. #93
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonheart View Post


    Eastwood does not manufacture powder, they are mainly a tool vendor. The powder manufactures cure schedule states for most powders, "10 minutes once the substrate reaches 400 degrees". Most powders start to flow at approximately 150 degrees so that means to come to the curing temperature 250 more degrees is needed.



    It would be interesting to measure/chart surface temperature. Some of the information about heat treating bullets could lead us to think that a 1 hour soak in a 460F gas oven does not heat the bullet to the ambient temperature of the oven. One tester used both a gas oven and a convection oven at 460F and the convection oven bullets were 7 brinell harder, both were soaked at temp for 1 hour.

    How much heat the substrate conducts would be part of the question.

    But until the core of the bullet reaches 400F will the surface temperature be 400F in a 400F ambient environment ?? If we are PC aluminum sheet metal .06" thick the substrate will reach 400F much more quickly than if we are PC a 24" aluminum cube ?? Same issue if we are PC a .224" bullet vs a 20mm bullet ??

    Drilling a small hole near the OD of a bullet and inserting a small RTD to chart time/temp would be an interesting experiment.

    https://www.omega.com/pptst/FINE_DIA...TD_PROBES.html

    Those are small enough that one could be inserted near the outer diameter, and one at the center of the bullet.

    For those not in the know an RTD is a resister that changes resistance in reaction temperature change. A milliamp electrical current is sent through the RTD and this allows measuring temperature. We use a lot more RTD at work than thermocouples.

    They are IMHO way easier to verify when trouble shooting too, the RTD we use typically ohm out at around 110 ohms at room temperature, they also cannot be wired backwards...a thermocouple can be wired backwards.

    Of course surface temperature can be measured with IR stuff but the reflectivity of the surface skews the readings, some PC at a given soaked temperature may read differently with IR temperature measurement. Shiny stuff especially is an issue, most IR guns stink at measuring the temperature of molten lead, they will do fine with a less shiny object floating on the surface.
    Both ends WHAT a player

  14. #94
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by AR-Bossman View Post
    Elvis Ammo doesn't fallow this schedule and he gets a great coat that does exactly what he wants. I tried 400* for 20 and I had several pairs of bullets permanently welded together. I'm not gonna sit around and stand each of my 9mm bullets up.
    Exactly my point, the difference between a full cure coating (welded together) and a partial cure. But whatever you are happy with.

  15. #95
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willbird View Post
    It would be interesting to measure/chart surface temperature. Some of the information about heat treating bullets could lead us to think that a 1 hour soak in a 460F gas oven does not heat the bullet to the ambient temperature of the oven. One tester used both a gas oven and a convection oven at 460F and the convection oven bullets were 7 brinell harder, both were soaked at temp for 1 hour.

    How much heat the substrate conducts would be part of the question.

    But until the core of the bullet reaches 400F will the surface temperature be 400F in a 400F ambient environment ?? If we are PC aluminum sheet metal .06" thick the substrate will reach 400F much more quickly than if we are PC a 24" aluminum cube ?? Same issue if we are PC a .224" bullet vs a 20mm bullet ??

    Drilling a small hole near the OD of a bullet and inserting a small RTD to chart time/temp would be an interesting experiment.

    https://www.omega.com/pptst/FINE_DIA...TD_PROBES.html

    Those are small enough that one could be inserted near the outer diameter, and one at the center of the bullet.

    For those not in the know an RTD is a resister that changes resistance in reaction temperature change. A milliamp electrical current is sent through the RTD and this allows measuring temperature. We use a lot more RTD at work than thermocouples.

    They are IMHO way easier to verify when trouble shooting too, the RTD we use typically ohm out at around 110 ohms at room temperature, they also cannot be wired backwards...a thermocouple can be wired backwards.

    Of course surface temperature can be measured with IR stuff but the reflectivity of the surface skews the readings, some PC at a given soaked temperature may read differently with IR temperature measurement. Shiny stuff especially is an issue, most IR guns stink at measuring the temperature of molten lead, they will do fine with a less shiny object floating on the surface.

    So much easier to cast a cheap K thermocouple (about a buck each) into a bullet and use a cheap digital K type thermometer (about $5) to monitor the temp. Since I cook multiple racks at a time I monitor the middle rack, which starts to flow last, so I know when it is to temp all the racks are to temp. At that point I set the timer and go do something else.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by AR-Bossman View Post
    Elvis Ammo doesn't fallow this schedule and he gets a great coat that does exactly what he wants. I tried 400* for 20 and I had several pairs of bullets permanently welded together. I'm not gonna sit around and stand each of my 9mm bullets up.
    try a different PC. some PC's tend to "weld together" and many don't.
    The worst culprit is not getting all the excess PC off before dumping and baking.
    Another problem is timing, dump the freshly baked PC to soon or too late and you can get more sticking

    What PC are you having problems with?

    You can bake the PC for less time and at a lower temperature and still get a pretty coat, It may still pass the smash test BUT
    IT IS NOT FULLY CURED AND CAN BE AFFECTED/GET MELTED BY SOME SMOKELESS POWDERS AND ISN'T AT FULL STRENGTH

  17. #97
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    A top quality PC'd cast requires a little extra effort, requires paying attention to details and following well established guidelines and of course using a quality PC product.


    Our less than stellar results are from taking shortcuts, using low quality PC, shortening our baking times, neglect of temperature regulation, et cetera., et cetera., et cetera. ...
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

  18. #98
    Boolit Man
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    I'm just getting into powder coating...does anyone have a handy link to elvis ammo or some of the other 'Youtube gurus' shooting their loads?
    Don't want no one to git hurt, but if you're gonna have a wreck, I wanna watch.

  19. #99
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    Just go to Youtube and search "shooting powder coated bullets "

  20. #100
    Boolit Master
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    Or search YouTube using the name of the 'Tuber. Elvis Ammo is one, FortuneCookie45LC is another very good poster.

    Anything you want to save for reference though, you had better download to your computer. YouTube is in the process of gradually deleting gun related content.

    GOD that makes me furious!!

    Vettepilot.
    "Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
    Benjamin Franklin. (A very wise man!)

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check