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Thread: Contradicting Data from Alliant

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy am44mag's Avatar
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    Contradicting Data from Alliant

    So I was looking up some data for 44 mag, and I noticed something odd. I found references for old Bullseye data from Alliant that lists a max load of 9.8gr for a 240gr boolit that produces 1175 FPS.

    The current Alliant manual lists 6.0gr of Bullseye as a max load. At 894 FPS in a 44 MAGNUM, I having a hard believing that's an actual max load.

    So what's the deal? Why did Alliant Nerf their data for Bullseye? Is the old 9.8gr load safe?

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
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    Aaron

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
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    Attorneys/Lawyers & Alliants fear of litigation, is my WAG.

    I do know the old load data I have been using have been safe in "my" firearms. I also am one who takes the time to check when opening a new container of a powder and start lower & load test up from there to what I previously had for a good load. Not everyone does this, I would reckon. ( It doesn't take that long to make the testing rounds up & test shoot them & gives peace of mind as well. Besides, I kind of like load testing anyway. LOL )

    I have used mostly 2400 in my 44M SRH. with some adventures with AA#9 (and H110 once, IIRC). I have not tried any Bullseye in that caliber/firearm, so I can not help about the Bullseye load of 6gr. or 9.8 gr. BE.
    ( I did confirm your load data points though by going & checking some resources. I guess you could start at 6 gr. of BE & then work your way up from there, Or.... you could start about 8.0gr.(or approx 10% reduction) & work up from there to the 9.8 max & see how it does. Using a Chrony helps & look for signs is the regular advice, right? )

    G'Luck!
    Last edited by JBinMN; 10-27-2018 at 04:44 AM. Reason: forgot the word "or"
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  3. #3
    Boolit Master tazman's Avatar
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    I have a 2005 manual that lists the 9.8 grain load and a 2010 manual that lists the 6.0 grain load.
    Somewhere in there, they changed it for some reason.
    You are correct that it doesn't make any sense.

  4. #4
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    If the powder changed (too tired to check that at this hour) or if some idiot blew up a weak gun & they were sued (probably what happened IMO) are at least 2 of the possible reasons why. Remember that in a civil suit, you have to prove that you're innocent, which has to be HARD - Prove that you weren't the man on the grassy knoll, for example. (I was in 6th grade at the time, don't know that I could PROVE that I was in class that day though, at this later date.)

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    A lot of manufactures seem to try and keep their cast data below 1,000 fps. I'm betting that is the only reason for the reduction.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    Actually the bean counters and the lawyers got involved. In the 9.8gr manual they were listing a 240gr L (gc) bullet.

    In comes the bean counter and tells them "HAY' why ain't we using/promoting the the bullets we sell in our reloading books???" It goes up the ladder to the Big Boss & say good idea. The lawyer's get called and asks what changes they should do in there reloading manuals when they change bullets. The lawyer's tell them to only give min/max powder charges omitting any pressure's.

    The end result is the 6.0gr load is listed to go with their "speer" swaged lswc.

    At the end of the day it's:
    240gr swaged soft lead swc/6.0gr bullseye vs 240gr cast lead bullet with a gas check/9.8gr bullseye

  7. #7
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Modern pressure testing equipment where they can see the pressure curve. They don’t nerf everything just because of the lawyers. They must have retested and found the need to lower it. Old pressure testing methods were imprecise and akin to seat of your pants in some instances.

  8. #8
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forrest r View Post
    Actually the bean counters and the lawyers got involved. In the 9.8gr manual they were listing a 240gr L (gc) bullet.

    In comes the bean counter and tells them "HAY' why ain't we using/promoting the the bullets we sell in our reloading books???" It goes up the ladder to the Big Boss & say good idea. The lawyer's get called and asks what changes they should do in there reloading manuals when they change bullets. The lawyer's tell them to only give min/max powder charges omitting any pressure's.

    The end result is the 6.0gr load is listed to go with their "speer" swaged lswc.

    At the end of the day it's:
    240gr swaged soft lead swc/6.0gr bullseye vs 240gr cast lead bullet with a gas check/9.8gr bullseye
    I think this is the most likely scenario. Consider that swaged boolits are soft alloy and really can't be pushed very hard. I have often said that it a question begins with "Why do they ...." or "Why don't they ...." the answer is almost always "Money".

  9. #9
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Out of curiosity I ran the numbers in Quickoad using the Speer LSWC at 1.600 and a shot start initiation pressure of 1160(lead). I will warn that QL can be finicky w/ straight wall cases. But the graphs below show that the 9.8 grain load was close to PMAX. I ran it for a 3” and 6” barrel.









    The 6.0 grain load can obviously be increased if you aren’t using a swaged lead bullet. And technically I should have used the minimum OAL of 1.605 but the old manual listed 1.600 which will increase pressure slightly. If their pressure testing showed the same pressure curve I can see why they backed it down.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master
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    When one uses data one needs to read everything said about the cartridge, load data and the test equipment to be able to understand the whys, where of's and everything else concerning the data.
    Speer says in their 14th edition that they now hold the velocities of the 240 gr bullet they use now at not over 1000 fps due to performance with that bullet generally because of leading. It is a swaged bullet that doesnt lend itself to a swift kick in the behind with blazing speed powder.
    Be sure to read everything and not just the data. It is there for a reason.


    Again I mean no hurt, harm, anguish or turmoil by my post I have posted on this posted subject. I am not baiting, trolling or calling out anyone. I am making a post based on my experience, knowledge and/or belief or opinion. That is all.
    We Know Mass Cannot Be Weighed But It Has Newtonian Weight And That Is Derived From Kilograms And Kilograms Can Be Converted to Pounds. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed. But How is the kilograms obtained? Can Kilograms Be Weighed? Evidentally Yes It Can. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed So Kilograms Must Not Exist. Funny Isn't It.
    One good thing out of this the next time I'm at the doctors and they want to weigh me I'll tell them mass cannot be weighed.

  11. #11
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    Forrest r nailed it.

    The data is based simply on the use of 2 different bullets; a GC'd cast bullet for the higher load and a Speer swaged lead bullet for the lighter load. The GC'd cast bullet will handle the increased pressure (still within SAAMI MAP btw) of the 9.8 gr load. The Speer swaged lead bullet will not so the load/velocity was reduced to the specs for that bullet recommended by Speer. The psi is low.

    The lawyers had nothing to do with it. The change was simply based on the use of a bullet type/load more often used in cowboy action shooting these days. How many shooters really use Bullseye powder for a 44 magnum level load these days.....hardly any I'd say. They list a load catering to todays shooters........

    There is nothing "contradicting" in the data.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
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  12. #12
    Boolit Buddy
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    I wonder with the cowboy loads and soft lead if that’s it. It my not be over pressure at the higher charge but they use a lower max charge for loads like this . Just wondering

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jniedbalski View Post
    I wonder with the cowboy loads and soft lead if that’s it. It my not be over pressure at the higher charge but they use a lower max charge for loads like this . Just wondering
    There is nothing to wonder about. The lower charge is used to hold velocities of the 240 bullet they use now to 1000 fps or less due to the bullet alloy and the less efficient lube they use to prevent leading. It has nothing necessarily to do with pressure.
    The can be a max load designated by other things than pressue. Leading with soft swaged bullets with less efficiant lube can be one of those things.

    Again I mean no hurt, harm, anguish or turmoil by my post I have posted on this posted subject. I am not baiting, trolling or calling out anyone. I am making a post based on my experience, knowledge and/or belief or opinion. That is all.
    We Know Mass Cannot Be Weighed But It Has Newtonian Weight And That Is Derived From Kilograms And Kilograms Can Be Converted to Pounds. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed. But How is the kilograms obtained? Can Kilograms Be Weighed? Evidentally Yes It Can. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed So Kilograms Must Not Exist. Funny Isn't It.
    One good thing out of this the next time I'm at the doctors and they want to weigh me I'll tell them mass cannot be weighed.

  14. #14
    Boolit Buddy am44mag's Avatar
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    I'll work up some loads and just watch for pressure signs. I don't know why they would only list data for a swaged bullet for 44 mag, or why manufacturers would limit lead to 1000 FPS when it can easily be pushed MUCH faster without issue, but whatever floats their boat I guess. Seems kind of stupid to me. I shoot 44 magnum because I want a powerful (MAGNUM) round. If I wanted something watered down that much, I'd shoot 44 Special or 45 ACP.

    Thanks for the help and the info fellas.
    ______________________________________________
    Aaron

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by am44mag View Post
    I'll work up some loads and just watch for pressure signs. I don't know why they would only list data for a swaged bullet for 44 mag, or why manufacturers would limit lead to 1000 FPS when it can easily be pushed MUCH faster without issue, but whatever floats their boat I guess. Seems kind of stupid to me. I shoot 44 magnum because I want a powerful (MAGNUM) round. If I wanted something watered down that much, I'd shoot 44 Special or 45 ACP.



    Thanks for the help and the info fellas.
    It was explained that it is due to the bullet being a swaged lead bullet using an inefficient lube that could cause leading over 1000 fps is the reason. It is not a pressure issue.
    Also some dont cast and just want bullets for low velocity for whatever reason. Also cast is listed in the new data but it is 250 grain for full power.
    They are trying to capture as many customers as possible for money.


    Again I mean no hurt, harm, anguish or turmoil by my post I have posted on this posted subject. I am not baiting, trolling or calling out anyone. I am making a post based on my experience, knowledge and/or belief or opinion. That is all.
    Last edited by 44MAG#1; 10-28-2018 at 09:51 PM.
    We Know Mass Cannot Be Weighed But It Has Newtonian Weight And That Is Derived From Kilograms And Kilograms Can Be Converted to Pounds. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed. But How is the kilograms obtained? Can Kilograms Be Weighed? Evidentally Yes It Can. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed So Kilograms Must Not Exist. Funny Isn't It.
    One good thing out of this the next time I'm at the doctors and they want to weigh me I'll tell them mass cannot be weighed.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master Walks's Avatar
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    In 30yrs I've never meet a Cowboy Shooter that used BULLSEYE in a .44MAG case. Meet a few in the old days that used it in .45COLT or .44SPL.

    But then by 2000, anyone that did use BULLSEYE in large cases had switched to TiteGroup or Trailboss.

    The gamers that shot sissy .38spl may still shoot BULLSEYE, but that's it. Most use more modern powders.

    Don't blame COWBOY SHOOTER'S for a RECENT change in data.
    Happiness is a Warm GUN & more ammo to shoot in it.

  17. #17
    Boolit Man

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    I received this reply from Alliant a while back that may apply to your question:
    Reply from Alliant:

    Carroll,
    The data from the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook is tested load data that meets the same industry standard that Alliant goes by. That data is good as long as the bullet is the one listed in their data. We often refer to the Lyman data as Alliant has no tested load data for hard cast bullets.
    Thanks,
    Duane V.
    Technical Services Rep
    Alliant/Blazer/CCI/Speer
    2299 Snake River Ave
    Lewiston, ID 83501
    1-800-379-1732

    I’d validate that with another current primary source.
    "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people." (Amendment IX)

  18. #18
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Article cross-posted from The Fouling Shot by permission of the author.

    Tales from the Back Creek Diary - Bullseye Powder .44 Magnum “Medium” Velocity Loads

    Soft, plain based, bullets and fast-burning powders provide economy and utility.

    C.E. “Ed” Harris

    A firearm does not need to be operated at “full power” any more than any other machine. It is true that some people still believe that if you own a .44 Magnum and reload for it, you must be able to feel the heat on your face every time you pull the trigger, as your hand stings and your ears ring. But this is nonsense, of course. Less power loads are fine for recreation and most field shooting. They indeed have their place. My friends and I probably shoot 100 rounds of “medium velocity” loads for every dinosaur killer. Few reloading manuals list loads for the .44 Magnum other than hand busters. Experienced reloaders successfully improvise, but less intrepid, practical shooters are frustrated.

    The so-called “medium velocity” load is subsonic when fired in from a typical revolver. It also does not exceed the leading threshold of about 1300-1400 fps., when a soft, plain-based bullet is fired from a rifle. Remington offered marketed exactly such a .44 Magnum load for a short time during the early to mid 1980s. It was intended for the police market, as a counterpart in .44 Magnum, to the similar lead bullet .41 Magnum police load, which has also, unfortunately been discontinued.

    Remington’s .44 Magnum Medium Velocity load offering used a flat-nosed, 240-grain, plain- based, swaged lead bullet with two cannelures, resembling an elongated .44-40 slug. Its shape mimicked today’s “Cowboy Loads” having a catalog velocity of 1000 f.p.s. from a 4-inch vented test barrel, simulating revolver conditions.

    These ballistics approximate those of the original 1873 black powder .45 Colt service cartridge, when fired from a 7-1/2 inch barrel. This is hardly today’s “mouse-fart” cowboy load, but stout stuff like they used to kill buffalo and shoot Indians. For today’s hand loader the greatest economy is realized by being able to exploit plain-based cast bullets, using the least expensive, soft scrap alloy, such as wheel weights or common scrap, with faster-burning pistol or shotgun powders which provide twice as many rounds per pound, as the slow-burners normally used for full power .44 Magnum loads.

    Lyman’s Cast Bullet Handbook, 4th Edition lists .44 Magnum charges with using fast-burning powders, but their starting loads, while useful in revolvers, often exceed the leading threshold of plain based bullets, when fired in a rifle. Newer powders such as Titegroup or Trail Boss are listed, but my favorite, Bullseye was not. Be careful in reducing slower burners, such as #2400, because ballistic uniformity is impaired if you go below about 16 grains in the .44 Magnum case with 240-gr. bullet. What follows is my listing of loads which “work” and are well proven. I hope this shortens your learning curve and that they work as well for you as they do for my friends and I.

    Medium Velocity Loads for .44 Mag., 265-gr. Saeco #441, BHN11, unsized .433”, LLA

    Case, Primer and________Velocity____Velocity___Five, 5-shot Groups* @ 50 yds. H&R
    Charge Weight_________5-1/2” RBH__H&R 22”___*Largest__Smallest__Average

    Remington .44 Mag. WLP

    6.0 Bullseye, LD#11_____874, 36Sd__983, 49Sd___2.5_____1.9______2.24
    6.6 Bullseye, LD#12_____948, 13Sd__1141, 9Sd___2.5_____1.4______1.94
    7.8 Bullseye, LD#14____1017, 11Sd__1233, 10Sd__2.5_____1.2______1.88

    Remington .44 Mag. WLP, Remington 240-gr. Semi-Jacketed HP
    8.4 Bullseye, LD#15____1033, 11Sd__1197, 15Sd__2.2_____1.2______1.76
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  19. #19
    Boolit Master
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    The OP mentioned the 44 Mag. Alliant #14 has data for THEIR 250 grain SWC bullet. Its funny isnt it?

    Again I mean no hurt, harm, anguish or turmoil by my post I have posted on this posted subject. I am not baiting, trolling or calling out anyone. I am making a post based on my experience, knowledge and/or belief or opinion. That is all.
    We Know Mass Cannot Be Weighed But It Has Newtonian Weight And That Is Derived From Kilograms And Kilograms Can Be Converted to Pounds. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed. But How is the kilograms obtained? Can Kilograms Be Weighed? Evidentally Yes It Can. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed So Kilograms Must Not Exist. Funny Isn't It.
    One good thing out of this the next time I'm at the doctors and they want to weigh me I'll tell them mass cannot be weighed.

  20. #20
    Boolit Master RED BEAR's Avatar
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    ditto to dragon813gt they changed the way that pressure is measured and others are right that different bullets require different loads cast vs jacketed. also powder is made in large batches and may vary slightly from batch to batch. i always check several different sources for data. others are right that the lawyers have an effect to.back in the day load data would come close to max pressure not anymore. having blown up two guns in my younger and dumber days can't say it is all that bad a thing.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check