12ga Smoorbore - Factory Ammo - Accuracy at 50 yards/meters

[faustus]

12ga Smoorbore - Factory Ammo - Accuracy at 50 yards/meters

So after seeing hickok45 on YouTube shoot smootbore slugs out to 200 yards ... I wanted to know how accurate those slugs really are ... and I bought a variety of slugs to test them out.




The gun that I used for this test was an 870 Police with rifle sight and fixed Improved Cylinder choke ... and I was shooting at the target from 50 meters/yards.


The gun:




And here are the results ..... In short the Federal TruBall Foster slug gave me the best results .... basically I am getting 1.5 to 2 inch groups at 50 yards/meters.












Another Truball group with a Hastings smootbore barrel .... different gun ...




Voila, .... from my minimal testing ... the Federal Truball is the winner for me!!
And that is what I am carrying nowadays for hunting deer ....

[faustus]

faustus... you still around? it has been a while since I looked at this thread.

I got side tracked again and while I got some shooting in last spring, we had a bad fire season this year so I stayed out of the bush and our local range was closed so no shooting. So I got some good fishing in and kinda forgot about slugs for a bit.

Back to it now.

I never did get hold of any Brenneke Classics.

Have you checked them for accuracy from your smoothbore? Just curious. I am considering a rifled gun but really prefer the versatility of a smoothbore so not wanting to pry the money out of my wallet if a good slug will get acceptable accuracy out to 100 yards from smoothbore.

It was recently pointed out to me that BPI is stocking AQ slugs again too. I bought some AQ's many years ago and had some pretty dazzling accuracy from them. Two big disadvantages... they are pricey for general shooting; they are soft lead "balls" more or less on a plastic wad. Very accurate and easy to load but I'd prefer hard alloy for bear defense... or armoured vehicle defense.

Anyway, curious about the Brennekes.

I'm heading to Edmonton for Thanksgiving so will try to get to Cabelas and the Outdoor Sportsman (IIRC) to check on factory Brenneke availability.

Longbow

Longbow, I was a big fan of the Brenneke slugs ... and part of it is family history. My grandfather would hunt boars with the Brenneke around 40 years ago.

I remember, he allowed me to take one of those cartridges apart ... around 40 years ago ... as an educational experiment ... and according to my recollection ... what is loaded in the Rio Royal Brenneke is exactly what I found 40 years ago in that shell ... a Brenneke slug with a felt wad ... some plastic/rubber washers ... and all screwed together with a normal screw.

And the Rio projectile ... is an original Brenneke ....

Attachment 207570

Attachment 207571

Today, I don't hunt with the Brenneke any more .... my tests have lead me to other type of slugs.

1.) For accuracy the Federal TruBall seems to be the most accurate for me ... and that is what I am using now for deer hunting. I haven't found anything that is more accurate ...

2.) And the Challenger (Gualandi) slug was the clear winner of my penetration test ... and that is what I am carrying nowadays for bears ... and just in case. The Challenger is not accurate (or at least it was not as accurate for me) ... but the Challenger has shown the deepest penetration ...

The Brenneke is not a bad slug .... I believe it has proven itself over many many years ... but my tests have shown me that today there are better options out there ... for accuracy and for penetration. And the Challenger and the TruBall are much more accessible here in Canada ... Brennekes are so hard to find north of the 49th parallel ....

I have never shot the Brenneke Classics ... but I would assume that the projectile is identical to what Rio loaded in their shells ...

Voila, hope this helps ...
Faustus

p.s.: I still have a lot of Rio Brennekes in storage here .... and which I would be willing to sell ... if you are interested.

[longbow]

Faustus:

Yes, I think you are right about the RIO, original and classic Brennekes. The reloadable slugs I bought about 40 years ago had stiff leather (I think) washers on either side of the felt/fiberous wad. Newer versions I think use plastic washers but overall the same design of slug.

Vitt Boos used to have a very similar slug but I haven't seen them around for some time. Of course living in a reloading supply wasteland doesn't help either. There is not much near me.

I might take you up on those, or at least some of those Rio Brennekes. I called around when we were in Edmonton but no luck. There may be some somewhere there but not at the places I got hold of. I suppose prairie land isn't the best place to be looking for slugs though. Not sure what the HAZMAT fee is for shipping loaded ammunition though. That could be a stumbling block.

I'll do some bore searching but if I don't find any "locally" then I may buy some of yours if the shipping isn't a problem.

Thanks for the offer.

Longbow

[Bob9863]

That's nice accuracy from a smoothbore, I tried a few out and found GB rifled slugs more accurate then my 44mag carbine at 50m.
If casting wasn't so much fun then they would be all I used.
I will pick up a box and see how they go in my new express sighted barrel, but being fixed sights it's easier to tune a home rolled to the sights then to find a factory load that hits POA.

[CastingFool]

I used to get 2-3/4" groups at 50 yds. all day long, provided I did my part. I was using a Remington 870 with a 20" slug barrel. IC choke, rifle sights. Ammo used was either Winchester or Remington foster slugs. I eventually switched to a 24" Hastings fully rifled barrel. Increased my self imposed range to 75 yds, using solid copper sabots, but they got expensive, so I started using Remington sluggers. They work just fine through the rifled barrel.

[faustus]

Longbow, I did my research around 3 years ago .... and at the time the only Brennekes available in Canada were the Rottweiler and Rio ones.

It seems that Brenneke (the company) does not have a license to distribute in Canada .... their ammo never went through approval for importation.

And I have never seen any ammo from Brenneke (the company) for sale here in Canada .... and I searched all over at the time.

https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/foru...Brenneke-Slugs

[megasupermagnum]

Longbow, I was a big fan of the Brenneke slugs ... and part of it is family history. My grandfather would hunt boars with the Brenneke around 40 years ago.

I remember, he allowed me to take one of those cartridges apart ... around 40 years ago ... as an educational experiment ... and according to my recollection ... what is loaded in the Rio Royal Brenneke is exactly what I found 40 years ago in that shell ... a Brenneke slug with a felt wad ... some plastic/rubber washers ... and all screwed together with a normal screw.

And the Rio projectile ... is an original Brenneke ....

Attachment 207570

Attachment 207571

Today, I don't hunt with the Brenneke any more .... my tests have lead me to other type of slugs.

1.) For accuracy the Federal TruBall seems to be the most accurate for me ... and that is what I am using now for deer hunting. I haven't found anything that is more accurate ...

2.) And the Challenger (Gualandi) slug was the clear winner of my penetration test ... and that is what I am carrying nowadays for bears ... and just in case. The Challenger is not accurate (or at least it was not as accurate for me) ... but the Challenger has shown the deepest penetration ...

The Brenneke is not a bad slug .... I believe it has proven itself over many many years ... but my tests have shown me that today there are better options out there ... for accuracy and for penetration. And the Challenger and the TruBall are much more accessible here in Canada ... Brennekes are so hard to find north of the 49th parallel ....

I have never shot the Brenneke Classics ... but I would assume that the projectile is identical to what Rio loaded in their shells ...

Voila, hope this helps ...
Faustus

p.s.: I still have a lot of Rio Brennekes in storage here .... and which I would be willing to sell ... if you are interested.

I think a lot of it comes down the to the random nature of smooth bore guns. Take those Estate slugs for example. Absolute garbage in your gun. In an 870 I built, those slugs will shoot 3-4" at 80 yards. The truball was decent, but not nearly as consistent as estate in this gun. I took an estate shell apart, and it seems like a truball without a ball. Estate is owned by Federal, and loaded in a factory across the street. Some slugs like the truball and brenneke classics seem to just shoot good in everything. In a mossberg 500 I used to hunt with, it will shoot brenneke slugs better than anything else. Why are smooth bore guns so picky? I never could find any rhyme or reason.

[Bob9863]

It's funny how a smooth bore can be so inconsistent, one barrel on my gun with a scope was good and bad depending on minor variations in slug build, the new barrel with rifle sights shoots everything pretty good with minimal effort.

[6pt-sika]

I’ve got a pair now of 12 gauge 3” semi autos . A 1968 Belgium A-5 with a slug barrel with rifle sights and a circa 1988 Benelli Montefeltro Super 90 with a 22” barrel bead sight and the IC choke screwed in . Both do about the same at 50 yards shooting factory REM 3” slugs I’d say 3-4” for three shots . But I can pretty much match that with my circa 1911 Parker GH 16 gauge shooting handloaded Rooskie knockoffsof the Lyman sabot slug but down sized for the 16 .

[faustus]

...
I took an estate shell apart, and it seems like a truball without a ball. Estate is owned by Federal, and loaded in a factory across the street.
...
I never could find any rhyme or reason.

Well I took an Estate slug apart today just to see what the components are ... and the wad and slug seem to be identical to the TruBall ... just without the ball ... and this would confirm your findings. The wad is identical! It is one of the most sturdy wads I have ever encountered (I can't deform it with pure finger pressure)

The slugs looks the same and the weight is the same: Estate 439gr, and TruBall 436gr.

The velocities are the same.

So, the only difference is the ball ... and the powder load might be different.
(I didn't have the powder of the TruBall at hand to compare)



However, the Estate gave me mediocre results out of 3 different barrels ... whereas the TruBall gives me excellent results out of 2 tested barrels.

I agree, it is hard to make sense out of all of this???

Slowly I am starting to believe that it has all to do with how the slug is centered in the bore ... that is the only conclusion I can come up with.

[longbow]

"Slowly I am starting to believe that it has all to do with how the slug is centered in the bore ... that is the only conclusion I can come up with."

I agree 100%! Keeping the slug centered and giving it a good launch at the muzzle are likely the most critical aspects. I have maintained for a long time that the wad column is the most important part of the load other than slug fit. The factories can order what they want by the hundreds of thousands and it will all be to spec and identical. The home reloader orders what is available from BPI or Precision Reloading mostly.

By using components that work together even the old style undersize Foster slugs must have obturated evenly to fill the bore and provide quite decent accuracy. Keeping that slug centered and on a solid, stable wad column is a big part of that I think.

If I could get the same level of accuracy with my home cast HB slugs as the factories can give me I'd be a happy camper! To 50 yards or so I may be there but so far I've had factory Fosters stay withing 6" at 100 yards where my home cast and loaded won't stay that tight, so far anyway.

Now I am wondering if obturation is the reason Fosters tend to be soft lead.

Brenneke makes the slugs large at 0.735" IIRC, but big anyway, so they swage to fit the bore and those ribs allow that. Not sure what Gualandi slugs are for diameter. They are very long though and that helps center the slug and keep it stable in the air.

Have you mic'd the Estate and Federal slugs? How about any other Fosters. I have read that all used to be very much undersize but that some manufacturers have increased slug diameter to nominal bore size. Don't recall which slug manufacturers were mention but the reference was to standard factory loaded Foster slugs.

Longbow

[tomme boy]

If it does not start straight it will not fly straight! Same as a pistol as a rifle as a shotgun! THAT, is how you make them accurate.

[Bob9863]

What size are those TruBall balls anyway?

[Hardcast416taylor]

When I did sight in work for a small gunshop I got to try many different 12 gauge slugs that a customer might want his gun sighted in with. Without a doubt the most consistent and accurate factory slug out of a smooth bore slug barrel in just about any make was the old Winchester Foster style 1 oz lead slug. The shop `smith told me it is because the Winchester slug is a `tad` larger and fills the bore better when fired. My 870 with a rifled choke tube on the slug barrel will print 5 shots at 100 yds off a bench into a 3" group with no flyers.Robert

[longbow]

And that is the big question tomme boy... how do you ensure the slug starts straight when it is a rattle fit in the hull, has to unroll a crimp then jump a gap from hull to forcing cone then into bore?

Unlike handgun and rifle metallic cartridge the shotgun slug has several opportunities to tip. I still maintain that the wad column is as or more critical than slug design in that a good slug design that is allowed to tip or gets poor launch at the muzzle can't be consistent where a less than stellar design that is kept straight and true and gets good launch at the muzzle can be pretty accurate over reasonable ranges.

At 10,000 PSI (more or less) that wad column takes a beating. I search for shotcups, gas seals, even nitro card wads after shooting so I can inspect them and I can tell you that they suffer a lot of damage at firing so any uneven compression, leakage, gas seal damage, etc. all leads to poor accuracy.

I generally find that wad slugs give me better accuracy than full bore slugs sitting on a wad column and I think that is because the one piece shotcup provides guidance as well as a "cushion" all around the slug. I made some long Brenneke style full bore slugs with screwed on wads all assembled in a jig thinking the longer lead body and long attached wad would guide the slug better than shorter versions. Well, wrong again! Recovered slugs showed that the slug was tilting at firing so damaging ribs diagonally ~ at the nose on one side and base on opposite side. I have to think that was due to my home made wads compressing unevenly. These were nitro card wads drilled in a jig then screwed to the slug. While the nitro card wads start out pretty solid, after firing they delaminate and show damage. Hard felt would likely be a better choice.

Also, something I haven't seen discussed but I am sure is a big factor is the gas seal. We all know that a boolit base is very important in metallic cartridge reloading. Uneven or damaged base = poor accuracy. For shotgun the gas seal is the "boolit base". The gas seal is the last bit to leave the muzzle so if the gas seal is damaged or tilted, then it leaves the muzzle unevenly allowing uneven gas discharge.

Along with that if the wad column is not solid or evenly compressed then as the slug leaves the muzzle it can tip once free of the bore but still being pushed on by the wad column. Both things not encountered in metallic cartridge reloading.

So, yes, keeping the slug centered and getting nice even/consistent launch is conducive to accuracy it is just that it isn't easy to do without factory resources in my opinion... which is just that (or maybe its just a good excuse because I can't keep up with the factories!).

I guess another obvious difference between factory loaded slugs and home reloaded is just that... as reloaders we are generally using used hulls where the factories are always using brand new hulls which are going to be more consistent than already fired hulls reloaded.

More of the mysteries of slug shooting accuracy.

Why do I punish myself pursuing this I ask?

Longbow

[faustus]

What size are those TruBall balls anyway?

Ok, I took the calipers out .... the TruBall and the Federal are identical .... 0.732 inches at the base.

[longbow]

So then those are nominal bore size which helps explain some things. Best to start out big and swage to suit I think.

Thanks for checking.

Longbow

[centershot]

So then those are nominal bore size which helps explain some things. Best to start out big and swage to suit I think.

Thanks for checking.

Longbow

I remember reading that the Ithaca Deerslayer's had a barrel ID of something like .710" or thereabouts, wish I still had one! That puppy would shoot!

[longbow]

I didn't think they were that tight but I have read the same thing... that they were much tighter than standard 12 ga. shot bores. Having just taken a quick look it appears you are right and that they may have been as tight as 0.690" according to one internet source!

Coincidentally I also found this, which I had forgotten about, posted by Ithaca Gunner in 2013:

Longbow, here's the story on the Ithaca Deer slayer barrels.

I didn't want to hi-jack stripercrazy's thread with the story of the Deer Slayer barrel, so here it is by itself from Walt Snyder's book, "Ithaca Featherlight Repeaters...The Best Gun Going"

The Deer Slayer first appeared in Ithaca's catalog in 1959 with a 26" smoothbore barrel, and a carbine barrel of 20", straight bored to within a few thousands of SAAMI specs for slugs with rifle sights mounted, or for the Deluxe model, a receiver sight. Of course this was the Model 37 Featherlight pump. Available in 12, 16, and 20 gauges.

It all started on a deer hunt some years earlier in upstate NY. Ed Thompson, the head of Ithaca's repair department was among a hunting party when one of the fellows shot at a trophy buck at around the 100yd mark with a 12ga. slug, (type of gun was not mentioned, but it was a regular shotgun). The deer fled and the hunter assuming he made a clean miss retired for the day.

The next day the party hunted and stumbled across the trophy buck, dead from the previous day and rotting. Ed Thompson being a sportsman with a concern for game decided to take the problem of accuracy to Ithaca and see what could be done to make the most accurate slug gun possible. In 1958 Ithaca's sales department sent a letter to the barrel department requesting a barrel specifically for deer hunting. Two longtime Ithaca employees are credited with the development and technique of straight boring for the Deer Slayer barrels, Howard Lelik, and Francis Keene, (barrel room foreman). A straight bored barrel with rifle sights which closely fitted factory slugs was the end product.

Accuracy tests were done by H.P. White laboratory before the Deer Slayer made it's debut, "We have confirmed the company's claim to superior accuracy and stated that the performance of the Deer Slayer closely approached that of a .35 caliber deer rifle at 100 yards distance."

Shortly after, other gun manufacturer's began offering slug guns of their own design, but in my opinion, the Ithaca '37 is still the best. The company has changed and made improvements over the years, with rifled barrels introduced in the 1980's, with the D-S II and the D-S III currently available. Sadly, gone is the smoothbore Deer Slayer barrels from Ithaca's current catalog. We have to resort to used smoothies these days, but they're out there! I bought one this year for my '37 Magnum model on Gun Broker.

As for buckshot, Ithaca currently does not recommend or warrant it's use in Deer Slayer barrels. They make an 18.5" home defense barrel for the '37 for buckshot.

Actual diameter isn't stated but the old Foster slugs were very much under bore diameter so quite possibly 0.690" to 0.710" since the barrel was bored to suit the slugs.

Point in the end being that a tight fit and centered slug are important!

Longbow