I'm losing steam trying to develop accurate cast 9mm.

[megasupermagnum]

What about tension, though? If it's over diameter, you're relying on crimp alone to hold the boolit in place.

Edit: Well,I might still be ok. Grove diameter is .3564, I size at .358, and ordered a .357 plug.

Because of brass spring back, a .001" over size plug allows the brass to settle at the right size for good tension. I don't know about 9mm, but the regular expander plug that came in my 357 mag Lee set is a .357" plug, so you shouldn't be too bad.

[sureYnot]

Because of brass spring back, a .001" over size plug allows the brass to settle at the right size for good tension. I don't know about 9mm, but the regular expander plug that came in my 357 mag Lee set is a .357" plug, so you shouldn't be too bad.

I hope so. Not sure how much more the chamber will let me get away with.

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk

[tazman]

I am not going to give specific data but will tell you that the accuracy you seek can be achieved. I have three 9mm handguns that can do exactly what you ask.
Two are Springfield Range Officer 1911 pistols and one is a S&W 929 revolver. All three can shoot whatever you can hold it with ammunition tailored to the gun.
Just keep plugging away. You will find the combination that works.

[Lloyd Smale]

I ran into a problem back about 20 years ago when I first started loading 9s. I did it on a progressive press and got dismal accuracy at best. Got looking at my ammo and found slight bulges on one side of the brass on many of them. Come to realize I was trying to load fast and wasn't making sure I started the bullets straight in the case. Small cases like 9s 380s .25 acp ect are real prone to this as the bullets are small and with my big club fingers it takes a conscience effort to slow down and start them in straight. For the most part start with a hard bullet. The harder the better and the biggest size that will reliably chamber in your gun. make sure you gun is not damaging the bullets on there trip up the feed ramp into the barrel. Also you cant expect the first bullet you try is going to be a tack driver. Try a few more different molds. Two ive had real good luck with is the 115 and 120 rcbs round nose molds. Not the one with the shoulder they advertise as a comp bullet that cuts a clean hole in paper. that 120 has been hands down the most accurate 9mm bullet across the board in all the 9s ive loaded for. Sucks that its a 2 cav mold but I just bought two and cast them at the same time.

[Forrest r]

wst & aa#2 are your friend when it comes to accuracy in the 9mm.

I've reloaded the 9mm's for more years than I can count. Always used a .358" bullet, +/- 12bhn alloy,a larger than factory expander, seated the bullet in 1 step & taper crimped in another, always used a 2/1000th's to 3/1000th's taper crimp. 2 of the bullets I used for target work.
[IMG][/IMG]

What your don't see in that picture is bullet bulge/wasp waist. That small discoloration on the case mouth is what's known as a 2/1000th's to 3/1000th's taper crimp. You never said what brand of dies your using to reload your 9mm's with. In the past I've used rcbs & lyman, now I use a set of lee dies for the 9mm & 45acp. I like their taper crimp dies (not the fcd die/a real taper crimp die). What I don't like is the lee expanders. They are designed for the short, smaller in diameter jacketed bullets. A factory lee 9mm expander next to a custom expander I made.[IMG][/IMG]


Neo makes excellent custom expanders or the lyman m-die is another good option. Not only is the cases not being opened enough for the larger diametered bullets. The factory expanders don't go deep enough and this affects the most important part of the bullet, namely the bullet's base. Deform/swage the bullets base & the party's over. A lyman m-die with the step built into it that allows the reloader to start the bullet strait when seating it.
[IMG][/IMG]

A factory lee expander next to a lyman m-die. I lined them up so that both expander end at the same place. You can see a ring on the lee expander that the brass left (high water mark). The lyman m-die goes +/- 50% deeper into the case which ='s protecting the longer cast bullet's base.
[IMG][/IMG]

Taking a good look at your reloads is always a good thing. That 35870 hb bullet (red) pictured above in range brass.


Time to pick thru the reloads and make 2 piles. 1 pile to test and the other to shoot dirt clods @ 10 paces.
#1 never should of been used, too scratched up/work hardened/reloaded too many times
#2 wasp waist on 3 bullets/difference in brass/work hardening of the brass/too much neck tension veration
#3 reload has 2 issues both #1 & #2 listed above
#4 more wasp waist
#5 excessive wear on case mouth, bad for consistent neck tension & taper crimp
#6 Case never should of been used the ring on the web of the case was caused from case bulge from being fired in a unsupported chamber.

Look at the reloads in the "good" pile and read the head stamps. You'll find the majority of them will be the same 2 or 3 brands. Anymore I only use ww/fed/cci/speer 9mm brass.

Take your 2 piles of sorted reloads and test them for accuracy. If you test the "good" & the "culled" reloads & it doesn't matter on the targets. You have other issues going on that need to be addressed. Testing 9mm loads, a 50yd 10-shot group with that 35870hb bullet.
[IMG][/IMG]

A chronograph is always a good thing when your testing reloads for accuracy. A 44mag target.
[IMG][/IMG]

I know, what does a 44mag have to do with the 9mm. Well, I was testing home swaged bullets trying to find an alloy that would hold together in the +/- 1100fps range. I used junk/plinking brass which affects the es of the string. If you look at the #'s & the holes in the target they look correct. Slow bullets hit high/fast bullets hit low. When you test your reloads on paper over a chronograph you should see the same thing. If you don't somethings wrong.

There's cheap/free 9mm brass everywhere. Be selective in what you use when it comes to accuracy. If you don't will make the same mistake I did with a 357. Bought a new 686 a couple years ago and started working up loads for it. I had already went thru my 38spl brass the year before and thinned the herd. Accuracy came easy with the 38spl/686 combo, typical 6-shot groups @ 50ft.
[IMG][/IMG]

Started working on 357 loads and kept getting this junk for 6-shot groups @ 50ft.
[IMG][/IMG]
After the 2nd range trip it hit me, junk brass. So I went thru all the 357 brass I had and tossed most of it and ordered 2000 pieces of 357 brass from starline. The groups immediately went to bugholes with several 357 loads.

Long winded, ya.
But put everything together and you end up with loads that will hold the x-ring. 10-shot group @ 50ft from a nm 1911/9mm
[IMG][/IMG]

[wbrco]

Watching this thread. Having all the same issues.

Finding articles that say 9mm needs hard lead and only enough powder to make the action function.

Doesn't jive with the "only hard enough for no leading" that is extolled for other cartridges.

I've slugged, and bore is .357 and shooting
.358 boolits.

Lee 358-125 RNFP so lots of bearing surface.

Sent from my 2PS64 using Tapatalk

[Dusty Bannister]

Are you using mixed cases, seating to the crimp groove, or seating the bullet out to nearly touch the lands?

[popper]

If it won't shoot good factory ammo well, it won't shoot cast well either. Remember, 9mm (should have) has a tapered chamber, tapered case (factory) and tapered case wall. One of the reasons harder alloy is needed. Sizing die generally make strait wall cases. Longer expander spud is needed to get the inside of the case to proper dimension for larger cast boolits. Just a lot of dimensional stack upp that we have to overcome to get proper performance. Then there is the problem that barrel dimensions are al over the place. Yes it is more difficult to reload cast in 9mm but it can be done.

[marek313]

Thank you for all the responses. Looking at everyone's impressive targets now I see that its not the caliber but my rounds that still need work so back to the drawing table. Reading everyone's posts made me reconsider few obvious things i missed and should have thought of before. Actually couple are down right "DUH go back to fundamentals dummy" kind.

I'm using Canik TP9 SFX and full size Sig P320 for these tests and both guns appear to pretty much perform exactly the same. Doug here reamed Canik's throat so I could load .357 which alone made a huge difference in how this gun shoots now. Both guns shoot fine with FMJs as far as I remember but next time I go to the range I'm going to bring some FMJs to compare.

Here is a big one i think that i should have spotted before. I keep reloading random 9mm range brass with random head stamps. I need to stop doing this and take time and sort it all. I can see how crappy brass would throw flyers so this is a big one on my list.

Another big one that I havent looked at in a while which couple people pointed out is COL or is it OAL lol. I have been seating at around 1.100 for a while now because I had feeding issues with my Canik early on but I got that resolved. I installed lighter recoil spring, firing pin spring, trigger spring etc so now it cycles everything same as my p320. Couple people mentioned COL so I'm going to try seating longer. Added to the list.

I size to .3575 and my pulled bullets were the same size so I'm not resizing at this step here. I know this point is important so I checked that before multiple times before but not recently so I'm going to recheck that again. Added to the list.

Part of the problem is the fact that right now I only get to shoot on the weekends and since some liberal neighbor decided to complain so now we lost 15 yard range which was shut down and 25 yard is packed on the weekends so I'm lucky if I get a spot. I'm not aware of any places around me that allow reloads so you have to love New Jersey

All I wanted to do is vent a little about this stupid 9mm

I appreciate all the suggestions though. Definitely feel like I missed couple obvious ones here. Back to the drawing board

[trixter]

To compare I shot my 9mms (Canik TP9 SFX , P320) on steel 10" target with 3" free hanging bullseye @ 25 yards standing two hand grip unsupported. I could hit bullseye but not consistently with my 9s.

I am just curious, why you want to hit bullseyes at a distance so far away from the target? ( really not trying to be a smart a**, Just want to know. )

[Char-Gar]

One thing no one here has even mentioned and it plays a bigger role than anything and effects everything.

Case length!

9mm case length is all over the place. If you truly want a accurate load then sort your brass by manufacturer and then trim them all to the same length. That is the only way you are going to get the same crimp every time. And the same headspace every time. And the same bullet release every time.

This is very true. I sort by head stamp and then measure them and shoot from one uniform in length batch. I shoot 124 grain cast lubricated bullet (NEI mould). The alloy is wheel weight with a little tin.

I load to 1,000 to 1,100 fps with either Bullseye (3.5 grains), Unique (5.0 grains) or AA5 (5.7 grains). I taper crimp the bullets. The sizing diamter is either .357 or .358 and the COAL is 1.090". I don't have a preference between these 3 powders as they all seem to preform the same. I buy Bulleye and Unique in 8 pounds cans two at a time and am working on my last 8 pounds of old Israeli made AA5. AA5 is a good powder,but I won't buy it again for there is nothing it will do that either that Bullseye or Unique won't do as well. Being a ball powder it measures very smooth and might be a good choice for guys will Dillon progressives. I load on turrett presses.

I have fired these rounds in several American and Euro 9mms and this load yields accuracy equal to or better than factory ammo. All the pistols and my Chicom Uzi run these loads without a burp.

Doing the above, I have not found the 9mm difficult to load with cast for accuracy and dependability.

The pistols are as follows;

P.08 (Luger) 1913 DWM
Browning HP (post war) three of these
Sig P230
Smith and Wesson 59
Smith and Wesson 39

I have a Glock 17 and a Glock 19, but only shoot factory ammo in them. They are social weapons and not range toys.

[marek313]

I am just curious, why you want to hit bullseyes at a distance so far away from the target? ( really not trying to be a smart a**, Just want to know. )

I was just using that as comparison. Its not something that i need to do since most of the time we shoot local steel plate competitions at 10 - 15 yards so its more speed then accuracy. I just think that my guns should be able to do that if I take my time.

I havent been shooting for years and years like many here so I'm still working on shooting handguns accurately but it feels like a waste of time trying to work on your grip, trigger etc if the gun I'm using is not accurate. Was that last miss on me or the gun?

Looking at everyone's targets it looks like I should be able to shoot 3" at 25y. I realize some guns are more accurate then others and i dont feel like my rounds are completely inaccurate as they group ok I just need to eliminate all the wild flyers I'm getting. After reading all the posts and letting all that digest little bit I'm starting to lean towards cr@p brass throwing my accuracy off. I'm going to sort some of my loaded rounds to see if headstamp has anything to do with it. If that doesnt change anything I'm going to play with COL next and load them longer next time. I really want to go to the range now. You guys def got me thinking now

[W.R.Buchanan]

I'd like to go back to your first post OP, the part where you said you were shooting groups offhand, and not getting the accuracy you felt was enough. There are people who can do this, however I don't know them personally, and neither do you.

Let me say this and I am pretty sure everyone will agree,, You can't shoot groups off hand at 7 yards and expect to test accuracy that way. There are too many variables. In order to effectively test accuracy you must eliminate as many variables as possible. Like by shooting the gun off a Rest would be a good place to start?

If you had shot groups with all those powders and boolit combos off a rest, I think you would have probably seen a big difference in your results.

All the suggestions in this thread are perfectly useless if you aren't going to shoot off some kind of rest to remove "you" from the equation as much as possible.

Also shooting at the right type of target will help immensely. A Square Target Spot that is the same width as your front sight (3-4")when viewed at 25 yards or 50 Feet, if that's all you have access to,,, will allow you to index the Front Sight on the target more accurately and consistently. That cuts down on windage errors in sighting..

Then you set the Square Target Spot right on top of your Front Sight and carefully press the trigger as close to the same way as possible five or so times.

What you should end up with is about as good as that particular load will shoot from that gun.

Sometimes the way the gun is supported will have a dramatic effect as well, so you may have to try different holds on the gun.

Usually the most consistent method of holding a pistol against a rest is to use your regular grip (assuming it is decent in the first place) and set the package on top of the rest,,, or press your Support Hand Front against the back of the rest. These two methods seem to work best across most Semi Auto Pistol Platforms. Some will say have the gun contacting the rest, I have not had luck with that method.

After you have figured out which hold works the best you are ready to get serious with accuracy testing.

Then come back and tell us how it worked out for you.

Randy

[marek313]

In general I agree with you that rested would have been better. Next time I'm going to try to get to the range early or really late and hopefully i can play on a bench where I can shoot rested but even standing unsupported I could see the difference on paper between 9 and my 40/10mm.

My problem with shooting off the bench is statistics. There are many people with very impressive targets with some really nice 3-5 shot groups but can these individuals do it consistently though? probably not so much and many are trophy pics that we save to show off to others. If I'm going to shoot rested I'm doing 10 shots and repeat and repeat until I'm sure it wasnt a lucky or unlucky string.

When i shoot 100 rounds on steel target and connect 60% for instance with 9mm then pick up a 40/45 and connect 95% of the time there is a big difference there. Even if I pull couple shots here or there it doesnt make a big difference because of the high shot count.

In a perfect world I wouldnt live in NJ and I would have a small range out back like Hicok45 where i could test everything until I ran out of ideas. Unfortunately most of the time I'm shooting shoulder to shoulder unsupported.

[megasupermagnum]

In general I agree with you that rested would have been better. Next time I'm going to try to get to the range early or really late and hopefully i can play on a bench where I can shoot rested but even standing unsupported I could see the difference on paper between 9 and my 40/10mm.

My problem with shooting off the bench is statistics. There are many people with very impressive targets with some really nice 3-5 shot groups but can these individuals do it consistently though? probably not so much and many are trophy pics that we save to show off to others. If I'm going to shoot rested I'm doing 10 shots and repeat and repeat until I'm sure it wasnt a lucky or unlucky string.

When i shoot 100 rounds on steel target and connect 60% for instance with 9mm then pick up a 40/45 and connect 95% of the time there is a big difference there. Even if I pull couple shots here or there it doesnt make a big difference because of the high shot count.

In a perfect world I wouldnt live in NJ and I would have a small range out back like Hicok45 where i could test everything until I ran out of ideas. Unfortunately most of the time I'm shooting shoulder to shoulder unsupported.

There are some bench shooters who only claim the best they ever get. You will be more consistent shooting from a rest though, it's the only way you can know what changes made in improvement. Even just a primer change can cut groups down, but you would never tell shooting offhand. 3 shot groups are good for sighting in, but that's it. I like 5 shot groups though. My personal test is 5- 5 shot groups. That gives me an average that is as good as anything. I could shoot 5- 10 shot groups and the average would still be about the same.

[Cherokee]

I shoot 10 shot strings from the bench, sometime 20 rd. Most of my target 2-hand shooting is 20 rd groups. Consistency can be a challenge. YMMV

I found my universal 9mm bullet - Lee 356120 TC w/lube. Works in all my 9's with WST, 231, HS6.

[P Flados]

Ok, there have been lots of suggestions.

A lot mimic what I experienced before I "fixed" my problems.

I now

• Use a deep plug 0.358" expander
• Use 0.359" PC coated boolits.
• Use sorted brass, only Blazer, FC and CCI for me
• I seat and I do flare removal as separate steps.

I can now use any powder I want and loads up to book max with great accuracy and no leading.

We all know that many 9mm guns have no throats. However, this is usually easy enough to figure out.

I have come to believe that much of the 9mm "just can't figure it out frustration" comes from having boolits sized down by the case more than you think and/or just not going with big enough boolits.

The "undersized boolit leaving the case" problem lines up pretty good with any sign of unstable / tumbling boolits or with leading issues. With either of these issues you probably should try to "go bigger" where you can actually measure a bigger OD on the case in the region of the seated boolit. This is easier and probably better than trying to pull and measure boolits. You should be able to keep going "bigger" until you can feel that the loaded round is getting too snug in the chamber.

Now to get "bigger leaving the case" will probably require a bigger expander and it may require bigger boolits.

I think that the issue with boolits being sized by the case is a big part of why many have better luck with harder lead.

However it is not only that some boolit sizing down occurs, it is also the inconsistently due to the wide variations that occur in the relatively thick 9 mm brass.

My sizer die squeezes the brass down more than I need (it will let you load for a very firmly held 0.355 j word). The extra sizing increases the spring back during expanding. This is partly why I had to go so big with my expander. You may want to try backing off on running the sizer die all of the way down. With the case taper, this reduces the amount of sizing. For me it helped some even before I got a big enough expander plug.

The tight sizer also makes for more effort in the expander step. This is where mixed brass really increases the variations in what I note for effort to pull the sizer out. Most cases are "on the hard side", some are along the lines of "ok, brace yourself and grunt".

Note that more variations occur in the 9mm even using same headstamps than is typical for most handgun brass. It is the thick brass. With brass sorting, it is just that the extent of "stiffer" and the frequency of "stiff ones" are both less.

[smokeater]

I cast and shoot the LEE 356-125R for all my 9mms. Currently down to only 2 GLOCK 17s and 3 GLOCK 19s. Using my alloy (12 to 15 Brinell Hardness) and Unique, Power Pistol, HP38 and HS6, mine shoot just as accurately as when I shoot plated or jacketed. I size to .356 and seat deep enough for the "plunk" test and everything is rosey. Only shoot plated and jacketed for carry purposes myself although a cast bullet is just as good. Wife still likes to shoot the pretty shiny copper ones though. Lead been killing the bad guy years before the "J" word was available. Now, not knowing your particulars, I always shoot 300 to 500 rds of jacketed or plated bullets before I shoot a lot cast, kinda helps with the barrel break in plus they help to polish the bore. This is just something I learned from Brian Pearce's writings and it has served me well. Also, lots of time too hard an alloy can cause accuracy problems. I had a CANIK 9mm that shot just as good as my Glocks, but passed it on to our son-in-law who took a shine to it.

[skeettx]

WELL!!!!
I am going to take flak on this
Load up a handful of rounds with 800-X
YUP, 800-X, I know, I know BUT
Let me know what you get for accuracy out of the SIG

Mike

[Harry O]

I tried for several years to make plain base 9mm Luger bullets work. Results were always between mediocre to downright bad (from an accuracy standpoint). I finally gave up. I bought a gas-check bullet (I believe it was from RCBS) for the 9mm and have not had any problems with it since. Keep in mind that the pressure of a full power 9mm Luger load is very close to the pressure of a .357 Magnum (which I ONLY use gas-check with and don't have problems with).

Back when experimenting, I also had the crimping problem mentioned above. I measured a bunch of factory loads at the mouth of the 9mm and then set up my taper crimp die to give me the exact same mouth diameter. It worked great for feeding.