I'm losing steam trying to develop accurate cast 9mm.

[JBinMN]

Marek313,

Regardless of your saying this is a "rant" of some sort in your OP, be sure to know that there are some of us who, even though we sometimes do not post a reply, actually enjoy reading about others doings & what might be offered for advice from others who are trying to help out, as well.
So, your "rant" is actually helpful to some folks, even if you did not realize it.
IMO, "Rant" all ya like,as it is just another way to get info shared when info is given about the "rant" & what others offer for assistance to alleviate the rant. ( "Making some lemon juice out of the lemons" you got.)


Anyway.... Her is another vote for using a shooting rest of some kind to find out what the firearm can do.
(Usually a "bench rest" or a "prone rest" setup is best. But, most folks likely already know that...Some might not.. )

I think it is best to use the most stable position & rest you can, to test accuracy and verify where the firearm is shooting with a "baseline" ammunition before you try to work on any changes & then do the changes, "one change at a time", without doing any other changes, to get the best most accurate results of what is happening .

( For me, when I say "stable", that is a table(bench) and sandbags for pistols. Although sometimes I use a "V-notched jig" made out of some 2x6 or 8" material with a leather strip in the V to protect the firearm when shooting and small sandbags to hold it steady. I have difficulty getting up & down due to health issues for any prone positions, so that is rarely done by me now a days, or I would likely use that position for both rifle & handgun. So, it has to be a table w/sandbags or shooting stick or sticks(bipod) for me.)

Some folks use a walking(shooting) stick with a wrist loop which is either twisted around their "off/support hand side" wrist, or looped around their thumb/palm/whatever suits, with the back of their hand up against the stick to help be stable & that should certainly be more stable than just offhand, as well as being easy to use at your range even if it is busy.

You could also consider a"bipod" setup since you are going to a range, but you would have to figure out the best "mechanics" for how to rest either your wrist or your firearm to be comfortable as well as stable.

Some or many may already know what I am posting, but I am trying to help out here in my own way & as far as I am concerned that is one of the best reasons for a forum like this.
Helping out others if/when ya can, the best ya can.

G'Luck with your experiments & tests! I hope you get your solutions & satisfaction from doing it, as well as please take the time to post up what you end up finding out for results & what issues get solved.

[Vanquish]

My favorite cast 9mm is the Lee 356-120-TC. Cast from WW, air cooled, and then powder coated with smokes powder. I started sizing them to .356, and got very good results so I never bothered trying anything else. I probably should experiment a bit more, but these will consistently shoot sub 1" 10 shot groups at 10 yards at the indoor range I shoot at. I use a very light taper crimp. Power Pistol and 231 have been the most accurate powder for me so far. Power Pistol is cleaner, so once my 231 is gone, I'll stick with PP.

[Walks]

tomme boy has it right.

Most people slam any kind of brass thru a PROGRESSIVE. All they do is clean and barely sort to get rid of the stray 380.
I keep my brass in lots/boxes of 50 or 100. Sorted by headstamp, never mixed. Checked for length.
I cast from an old IDEAL #356402, LINOTYPE sized .356 over a hefty charge of BULLSEYE.

This functions well in a 1920 Commercial LUGER, early P-38, 1950's Hi-Power & half a dozen others.
Lately I've been trying the LEE 356-125-RN with a hefty charge of TITEGROUP. Decent accuracy.

[osteodoc08]

I’ve been using Casting Machines 124gr FP boolits and they are like lasers. I even ran them up to +p velocity and they plug and chug just fine with 231 powder. A solid 2-3” 10 shot performer at 25 yards if I do my job which is fine by me out of 4” service guns. They could do better from a bench without a doubt.

[sureYnot]

I tried for several years to make plain base 9mm Luger bullets work. Results were always between mediocre to downright bad (from an accuracy standpoint). I finally gave up. I bought a gas-check bullet (I believe it was from RCBS) for the 9mm and have not had any problems with it since. Keep in mind that the pressure of a full power 9mm Luger load is very close to the pressure of a .357 Magnum (which I ONLY use gas-check with and don't have problems with).

Back when experimenting, I also had the crimping problem mentioned above. I measured a bunch of factory loads at the mouth of the 9mm and then set up my taper crimp die to give me the exact same mouth diameter. It worked great for feeding.

Is it possible that the GC solved the problem by preventing the brass from sizing down the boolit? My CDO may demand that I test that theory one day. Any chance we could talk you into measuring a GC'd and PB boolit, both before and after seating? We may learn that there are two viable approaches to the problem of cases sizing down our boolits. Or, I could just be all wet... Cheers.

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[TaylorS]

Really good thread have had lot of issues with 9mm myself especially since I’ve started casting for it look like I need to make some shop time and take it back to basics


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[marek313]

I wrote my quick rant out of frustration as I was trying to figure out what to do next. All I was expecting was few posts telling me to stop whining and get back to work lol. I should have knows better then to think that. Looks like most of us are facing 9mm performance issues of some sort.

Sounds like we need to start some sort of 9mm Anonymous group here.
First we'll cover function, feeding and ejection then we'll move on to barrel leading and we'll finish with accuracy to complete this program.
It will be scheduled right after Glock Owners Anonymous. Thats where Glock owners get to face their fears and fire a non Glock handgun. Better hurry this class is filling up fast

But all kidding aside I'm glad I ranted as I'm finding very good info here in all these responses. As TaylorS pointed out dont overlook the basics. The whole gun/ammo relationship is a balancing act and sometimes we get lucky and sometimes we have to monkey around with things before they work. Sometimes all you need is a break and then you get that light bulb moment and I was planning on doing that but you guys got me thinking now so I'm going to be doing more testing this weekend hopefully from a rest this time.
Thanx guys

[popper]

Attachment 229011
It can be done. This is a 9 compact, more than 60 rnds on target - 2 handed, standing. 35-135S, WD HiTek coated, range pickup brass. I don't like to load 9 and this .357 sized gives some keyholed in SIL's 9's.

[Harry O]

Is it possible that the GC solved the problem by preventing the brass from sizing down the boolit? My CDO may demand that I test that theory one day. Any chance we could talk you into measuring a GC'd and PB boolit, both before and after seating? We may learn that there are two viable approaches to the problem of cases sizing down our boolits. Or, I could just be all wet... Cheers.

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I cannot measure any of my plain base 9mm bullets since I no longer have any. They have been melted down and turned into something more useful. I did try them sized at .355", .356", .357" and .358". I did find some bullet combinations that did well in one gun (or maybe two), but it was bad when I went to other guns. The gas-check bullets stopped that, too. They work pretty good to excellent in all of my guns now. Here is a picture of my 9mm gas-check bullets. I use standard size .357 Magnum gas-checks and size them with a 0.355" sizer. The size coming out of the sizer is 0.356" (undoubtedly due to copper springback). It is lubed with standard NRA 50/50 lube. Works well in ALL my 9mm's.

[fredj338]

That much testing, I think your particular 9mm just wont shoot lead bullets well. I can get 1" groups from a box stock glock g26, g19, g34 @ 10y with just about any powder bullet combo, no brass sorting, just load & shoot. My Springfield 1911/9 will do 2" @ 25y. I size all to 0.357", bhn is pretty soft, maybe 11-12? Maybe try NOT water dropping. At target vel, under 1100fps, you don't need a hard bullet.

[Dusty Bannister]

OP "Sounds like we need to start some sort of 9mm Anonymous group here.
First we'll cover function, feeding and ejection then we'll move on to barrel leading and we'll finish with accuracy to complete this program."

I think it might be more important to have the first part of this as bullet fit. I have been loading 9MM for others for quite some time and when I got a Ruger LC9, I made up some of the same bullets at the same diameter over different powders and experienced massive leading. I even tried a few rounds with 800-X and the fireball would have impressed anyone making an action movie. I knew the bullet was adequate to fill the grooves, but only after determining the cartridge OAL with the dowel or cleaning rod method, did I find out that to get the nose of the bullet to touch the lands, the base was not even in the case. The Lee 356-120-TC conventional lube has cured a lot of leading issues and it was a complete shock when it failed in this particular gun. Thankfully, another list member had sent a care package several years ago with some of the Lee 358-125-RF and they worked very well in this particular firearm.

If I were just starting out with cast bullets, it likely would have defeated me and I would have given up casting. And those that know me, know that is far from the truth as I really like my cast bullets.

There is a sticky about getting set up for cast bullets in 9MM. I think that if a member asked about a problem he is having and has not read that sticky, the first suggestion is R T S (read the sticky) and then come back with any questions. It is not unusual to forget some of the basic stuff when we have not worked with a new cartridge for a while, as this thread shows. Let's go have some fun. Dusty

[Char-Gar]

I cannot measure any of my plain base 9mm bullets since I no longer have any. They have been melted down and turned into something more useful. I did try them sized at .355", .356", .357" and .358". I did find some bullet combinations that did well in one gun (or maybe two), but it was bad when I went to other guns. The gas-check bullets stopped that, too. They work pretty good to excellent in all of my guns now. Here is a picture of my 9mm gas-check bullets. I use standard size .357 Magnum gas-checks and size them with a 0.355" sizer. The size coming out of the sizer is 0.356" (undoubtedly due to copper springback). It is lubed with standard NRA 50/50 lube. Works well in ALL my 9mm's.

Annealing the gas checks would make sizing easier and drastically reduce the spring back.

[reloader28]

We shoot nothing in pistols except cast boolits. So after fighting and fighting in 9mm I bought a plain base gas check maker from Pat Marlin and have had zero problems since. IMO this is better than a gas check shank boolit any day because you are not limited to one. You can put a check on any boolit. Zero leading and good accuracy out of several different 9mm's.

Plus this check will fit 357mag as well

[joebaja]

I don't have a Sig, so I don't know about that one, but my TP9-SF has never shot better than OK with medium and light bullets. I've tried 3 different 120-something gr molds and never been able to get more than so-so accuracy. Put a 140gr+ bullet over a stout charge of slow powder and it is a whole different ballgame. The 1-10 twist does well with pretty much every heavy bullet I load with either blue dot or power pistol. My Sar ST-10 is total opposite. It wants more velocity, and that happens with the lighter bullets. So, I end up with completely different "ideal" loads for each.

[Harry O]

Annealing the gas checks would make sizing easier and drastically reduce the spring back.

You are entirely right. However, it works well like it is. I usually only mess around with things that don't work.

[marek313]

I don't have a Sig, so I don't know about that one, but my TP9-SF has never shot better than OK with medium and light bullets. I've tried 3 different 120-something gr molds and never been able to get more than so-so accuracy. Put a 140gr+ bullet over a stout charge of slow powder and it is a whole different ballgame. The 1-10 twist does well with pretty much every heavy bullet I load with either blue dot or power pistol. My Sar ST-10 is total opposite. It wants more velocity, and that happens with the lighter bullets. So, I end up with completely different "ideal" loads for each.

Thats another thing I wanted to check again because a while back I loaded some Lee 358-158-RF over 3gr of HP38 and I didnt shoot too many of these but I think they better then 125-2R and def better then 120-TC (drops at .355 so i need to fix this mold).
I'm going to bring some of those with me next time and put those on paper as well just so I can compare. I might need to bump that a little over 3gr but its def something I want to look at again.

[tazman]

I have a couple of pistols that like heavier boolits rather than the lighter ones.
I also have a couple of pistols that prefer near full power over lighter or even midrange loads.
A couple of my pistols will eat anything. I think you could feed them rocks and they would be happy. Others, not so much.
I have a pistol that for whatever reason, never seems to get dirty when shot. I can put 150 rounds of some of the dirtiest ammunition through it and it really doesn't need to be cleaned. I don't understand that one, but I appreciate it.

[gwpercle]

The gas check mould I ordered from NOE ...358-124-TC-GC sure solved a lot of problems with cast in the 9mm Luger. Between protecting the base , making seating easier and eliminating leading at 1000 fps velocities with my softish air cooled alloy ...It has given me an outstandingly accurate bullet in 357 Magnum loads. I wasn't expecting that at all. Even good in 38 Special loads.
Might want to try this one out...it's a keeper !
Gary

[btreanor]

I never had any luck with lighter weight cast bullets in my 9mms. However, I've had great luck with hard cast 147 gr. FP and about 4.0 gr. of Power Pistol. I also use a Lee FCD and I've never had issues with leading in any of my 9mms. I wish you the best in your load developments!

[MT Gianni]

How does it shoot with factory ammo and handloaded jacketed bullets? You have to start with a baseline and sometimes that's it.