Heavy 45AR Loads/Noe 454424

[ShooterAZ]

I'm looking to see if anyone has data for any "newer" powders for this boolit in the 45 Auto Rim. I have been using 6.8 gr Unique with pretty decent results. Finding data for any of the newer powders (ie Power Pistol, etc.) has been a little scarce. The newest Lyman manual shows old wimpy data IMHO. The revolver I'll be using is a 5" S&W M25 "Model of 1989", and I have a good quantity of new Starline brass. The 6.8 Unique load hits with good accuracy & authority, anyone on to something better lately? If not, if it ain't broke I won't fix it. Got a Javelina tag in January and want to use this pistol (again). Javelina with a handgun is more fun than a barrel of monkeys!

[dogdoc]

Buy a copy of Handloader magazine 306 February 2017 through Magzter (get the app?). Great extensive article by Brian Pearce on 45 auto rim +p loads. Tons of data.

[Kosh75287]

I'm not sure if you'll improve appreciably on Alliant Unique for heavy .45 AR loads. Something with a burning rate closer to Aliiant Herco or AA#5 MIGHT net you a few more f/s, but it might require a chronograph for you to determine a real difference. Elmer Keith's 7.0/Unique/260gr. SWC (454424) load was clocked at 929 f/s, which is about 10 % warmer than .45 Colt factory loads

A load with the bullet you mention that develops chamber pressures equal to the Keith load (an "equi-baric" load?) but using Herco or AA #5 MIGHT give you close to 1000 f/s at the muzzle, or COULD break 1000 f/s, but I remain dubious whether you or your target will be able to detect the difference over the Keith load. Using a still-slower burning propellant, such as Alliant Blue Dot (to which I refer as "Peaky & Freaky") might also get you somewhere, but I doubt it.

The two big limitations I see are case capacity an barrel length. The .45 AR case simply can't hold enough magnum-style pistol propellant to develop the progressively higher pressures over longer burn times to give you the velocity you may be seeking. Additionally, I've never been able to get Alliant 2400, nor anything slower burning, to burn completely in a 6" barrel. I've obtained ALMOST complete burn in a 7.5" .45 Colt Redhawk, and I believe I DID get complete burning in a 10" .45 Colt T/C with 250 RNFPs and 255 SWCs.

Bottom line, I'm betting that your optimal load, if you're not already shooting it, will be near 7.0-7.2/Unique/260 gr. (454424), or something similar with Herco or AA#5. As you explore progressively slower-burning powders for your M25, I'd bet that you'll encounter progressively greater difficulties and disuniformities. JMO.

[35remington]

I would suggest staying well away from 1000 fps with that bullet as that exceeds 45 ACP +P by a notable amount. Start at 6.0 grains of Power Pistol, work up until you hit 900 fps and call it good. Your current load already gets you there. I know that is so as I also have that revolver in that barrel length and use that charge of 6.8 grains Unique over the slightly lighter 452423. I would not, emphasize not, increase it.

I can get 2400 to work but only with heavier than 230 grain bullets (as here) and bullets a half thou larger than the cylinder throats and a decent crimp.

If your current load shoots decently I see no good reason to experiment. Little additional benefit will be gained, if any.

[smkummer]

That 6.8 gr. unique load with 452423 shoots wonderful and accurate to the sights of my 1917 colt. I am not changing or fixing anything that isn’t broke.

[lotech]

I've tried #454424 loads with several powders in the .45 AR. While these may not have .44 magnum-level recoil, some loads have substantial kick.

[ShooterAZ]

I guess some things are just hard to improve on. I think I'll just stick with the load I have. Thanks for all the input.

[Harter66]

I have an old lot of Unique in the 5.5" unusually tight 1917 5.5 in RP ACP brass is getting me well into the high 800s with 5.5 and the NOE 424 . It doesn't shoot well in Smith but is impressive in Mom's Colt . It only runs 825 fps there though .

[Harter66]

Speer #12 has data for a 260 JHP in the ACP , I don't know if that comes forward or not but maybe start there .

[lotech]

The first loading manual I bought when I began handloading in the mid-'60s was Speer #6. It has some hot .45 AR loads with Unique and #2400 (but in folded head brass) and what looks to be Lyman #454424; probably warmer than anything you would find today.

[Tackleberry41]

The rare 45AR book data I have seen tends to be a bit mild. Its always based on 50 yo thinking that only cast bullets will be used. Plus the surplus guns it was often run in. Its just such a low demand thing for much other data to be out there.

Unique works, but it works in pretty much everything, just seldom the best. I get better velocity out of Silouette, need to try some power pistol. That was the hottest powder in the data from the Handloader issue, rarely buy them unless theres something specific in it I want, like data for 45 AR.

[35remington]

Given 45 ACP +P tops out at 950 with a 230 at 23000 psi, any heavier bullet that approximates that speed can reasonably be expected to run at higher pressures. AR and ACP case capacity is indistinguishable.

The NOE 452424 can be expected to run higher pressures for equivalent velocities due to 15 percent greater weight and deeper seating, necessitating a lower top end speed. I often see velocities recommended for the AR that seem less than prudent when heavy bullet weights are discussed.

[ddixie884]

Years ago, I used 7.5gr of Unique behind a version of the 454424 that weighed 263gr in various 1917 and one shaved Mark II. I now think this is less than safe in older guns. I have some Buffalo Bore 230gr .45 Super and fired some in my 625s. The 625 is made into .45 Rowland. I now load machine cast SWCBB 255s over 6gr Power Pistol. Remember that if 250 to 260 gr swc is seated to the crimp groove, it has a lot of the mass out of the case and won't fit in an auto. I believe the 625 is stronger than older models.

[Groo]

Groo here
At least one of the heavy load makers [ BB, Douple Tap,Underwood] has sed the use S&W 25/625's to test 45 super.....
Load a stout load to get ready,then buy a box of Underwood , BB or Double Tap 45 super, auto rim +P or 450 smc for the hunt.

[Larry Gibson]

FYI

I've pressure tested the "classic" Keith 45 AR load using a contender barrel and Oehler M43 PBL. I used a RCBS 45-255-KT cast of COWWs +2% tin (260 gr fully dressed) loaded over 6.5 gr Alliant Unique in Starline 455 Webley cases (same case capacity as their 45 AR cases) with WLP primers. The average peak pressure was 21,600 psi.....well within SAAMI 45 ACP +P MAP levels.

[sixshot]

Yesterday I cast up some of the Keith #452423 slugs designed for the 45AR. I use these in my S&W 4" 45 Colt mountain gun that's also been cut for moon clips so I can shoot 45 Colt, 45AR & 45 ACP. These shorter, lighter 250 gr slugs shoot nice in the mountain gun over either Unique, Power Pistol or Longshot. These 45 mountain guns are great packing guns!

Dick

[ddixie884]

Cool................

[kingrj]

Your load of 6.8 grains of Unique with a 260 grain cast bullet is NOT a wimpy load! In my .45 Super I use one grain more of PowerPistol behind a 255 grain cast for 1020 fps from a 5" barrel auto...If you feel good about shooting Super pressures in your wheel gun (which many that own them do) then just use .45 Super data..PowerPistol and Longshot both work quite well with the .45 acp...However the suggestion that you got about using a chronograph as you work up is a very good one...I have never seen the need to go much over 1000 fps with heavy bullets in the Super...

[Oregon_Dan]

Just FWIW, a while back, John Taffin did an article on the S&W Model of 1988 (45 ACP/AR) He used a load o 8.0grs of Herco, and a 250gr bullet. It chrono'ed it over 1000. I have used that load with the 452423 (240gr +/-), and at 25yds, I get one hole groups with my 1988 model. Yes, I worked up to it, and I certainly would with a 250 or heavier bullet