9mm +P+, what pistol can shoot it?

[tazman]

Many warn against it. Read your owners manual and find out.

Have not read the LCR manual. By all means photocopy and paste their approval of +P+ with your phone camera if you can do so.

The Ruger manual for the LCR is available as an online download. When it talks about ammunition, it doesn't mention any higher pressure ammunition specifically at all. It just says that 9mm ammunition is made to different tolerances and pressures worldwide and that all are safe to use in the gun. It says that some ammunition will develop pierced primers and that if that problem occurs, that particular ammunition should not be used due to operator safely reasons.
They also mention lead boolits for use in the LCR. They said to keep an eye on the chambers since the lead boolits can shave off a ring and deposit it at the front of the chamber, making cartridges hard to load completely.
Apparently they are not worried about high pressure factory loads in this revolver.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

SNIP...

2 boxes of 9mm 115 grain JHP factory +P+, one Federal, one from an LEA Winchester restricted issue.

If I had these two boxes, I'd save them.

[JBinMN]

Posted not to start or create argument, but for informational purposes for those who wish to know more...

I happen to have an LCR in 357M here, but have no need to use +P+ ammo in any of my 9mm.s, or any firearm I have for that matter.
But I was curious to re-read the LCR manual, as I did not remember anything in it regarding +P+, as well as like I said, have no interest in using +P+ at all.

Just as I was "curious" in reading this topic for "informational purposes".


Here is the Ruger LCR manual from their website:
http://ruger-docs.s3.amazonaws.com/_manuals/lcr.pdf

Tazman pretty well covered what Ruger has to say in their manual for the 9mm LCR, but I copy/pasted here from Page 13 to quote:

AMMUNITION INFORMATION
RUGER® LCR® REVOLVERS
CHAMBERED IN 9MM LUGER

NOTE: A package of three 9mm moon clips are supplied with the revolver and
are required to allow proper ejection of the 9mm rimless cases.
See “SPECIAL INSTRUCTIONS FOR 9mm MOON CLIPS” on page 18. The
RUGER®
LCR® chambered in 9mm Luger is only compatable with the 9mm
Luger cartridge. Do not use any other 9mm cartridges (9mm Short, 9mm
Bergmann, etc.). RUGER®
LCR®
revolvers are designed for use with
cartridges of the correct caliber which are manufactured in accordance with the
U.S. Industry Standards. Be certain to use proper cartridges of the correct caliber.
See page 23 (“Care and Cleaning”) for important information on chamber
cleaning.
Because 9mm cartridges are manufactured worldwide for use in pistols, revolvers,
and submachine guns, it is possible to encounter cartridges which, when fired,
develop pierced primers. If this occurs, discontinue the use of the particular
brand or type of ammunition. The possibility of a pierced primer is another
reason why a shooter should always wear eye protection. Use only metal jacketed
bullets in 9mm revolvers. When a lead bullet is fired, its base expands and a ring
of lead is shaved off and deposited in the shoulder area of the chamber. A buildup
of lead rings can prevent proper chambering of cartridges, so routine, proper
cleaning is very important (see “Care and Cleaning” page 23).
Also note that some ammunition may not securely crimp the bullet in the
cartridge. An improperly crimped bullet will move forward in the cartridge. This
will only become an issue if the round moves forward enough to protrude out of
the front of the cylinder. Should this happen, the cylinder will not be able to
index to fire as the nose of the bullet will hit the outside of the barrel or frame.
Should this happen, discontinue use of that particular brand or type of
ammunition.

I still do not feel the need for the +P+, but everyone is different. So ... Do as ya like, it is Your choice to make.

[35remington]

I read that as NO +P+ for the LCR as well, as there are no industry standards for it by SAAMI, CIP or anyone else. They stated that ammo manufactured to industry standards was okay.

Don’t see where they said all types and pressure levels were safe to use, just those manufactured to US standards.

I have not heard of anyone specifically condoning +P+ in a factory manual. Since there are no pressure standards for it, the reason why they do not is pretty obvious.

[GONRA]

GONRA is amazed that today's 9mm pistol manufacturer's don't STRONGLY mention
"shoot only CLEARLY IDENTIFIED SEALED BOX commercial ammo"!
There is some really hi pressure military ammo (for example, for SMG's)
that is for your cartridge collection, nothing else.

Really Bad News Example: Hirtenberger Patronen L7A1 ammunition.

[RED BEAR]

i was always under the impression that there is not really any such thing as +p+. it is really just +p ammo that the manufacturer is trying to make sure that people realize it is +p. any gun in good shape that can handle +p should be fine.

[35remington]

What is commonly seen in instruction manuals:

“While XYZ brand gun is approved for use with +P ammo, usage will accelerate wear on the gun.”

Quote.

What I have yet to see in a manual sent out with any gun:

“While XYZ brand gun is approved with +P+ ammo, usage will accelerate wear on the gun.”

I have often seen +P ammo specifically approved for use by mentioning it specifically, which is the non ambiguous way to do it. I have never seen a manual for a firearm specifically approve +P+ in such an unambiguous way. If read correctly, approval for use of +P+ is nowhere to be found.

As I said, it is understandable why that is not seen in owners manuals for the firearm.

Up to you to decide if that means what it says or not, or to try to find approval in something not specifically endorsed.

[razorfish]

I have a pistol that’s Factory designed to shoot this ammo. It’s an STI 2011 Trubor. In USPSA we call it 9 major. I load HS-6 under a 115 grain bullet and get just under 1500 fps (172 Power Factor). It’s a lightly compressed load designed to create lots of gas for the compensator.

http://www.semperfiarms.com/STI/TruBor/TruBor.html

[dragon813gt]

i was always under the impression that there is not really any such thing as +p+. it is really just +p ammo that the manufacturer is trying to make sure that people realize it is +p. any gun in good shape that can handle +p should be fine.

This is incorrect. There’s no SAAMI specs for +p+. On paper it means more pressure than +p. But since there’s no standard it’s a guess as to what you’re getting. A gun that can handle +p doesn’t mean it can handle +p+. I know I have a few that specifically say not to shoot +p+ in it.

An open gun is designed to shoot 9 major. They’re one of the few where I would feel comfortable feeling it a steady diet of greater than +p rounds.

[RED BEAR]

if there is no standard i can't believe that ammo companies would load anything over the sammi recomended pressure . i can't remember what issue but i believe the american rifleman had some thoughts on +p+. even buffalo bore ammo is all with in sammi specs.

[35remington]

9 major is not really comparing apples to apples here. We are not talking about race guns and non pressure tested handloads for most people, which is how experimenters run 9mm major, but rather factory guns most of us commonly buy.

Variations in chamber support and overall loaded length are a factor. In factory guns neither may be optimized, making deliberate hot rodding a bad idea. It would be beneficial to recognize that if one decides he can craft super hot ammo faster than can be bought.

[35remington]

If Buffalo Bore is within SAAMI spec, it isn’t really Plus P Plus, then, is it?

In making that point I remind that there is no SAAMI spec for Plus P Plus. It either falls within that standard of Plus P or it does not.

It is a pressure standard.

That being said, slide velocity is a function of bullet weight and velocity. It is possible for a load to get a bit higher velocity at industry acceptable pressure if it is run to the upper end of the limit.

[35remington]

And once again I am talking about what the manufacturers officially condone and what they will tell you in writing and in person.

You do what you want to do. Your decision, not mine.

[Cast_outlaw]

Ruger p89 is a +p+ rated gun I’ve maxed out 158g cast at 1100fps it’s been taking it for over 20 years if I go up .1gr on the load it ruins the cases and it won’t fit in the shell holder in my press any more

[Forrest r]

I read that as NO +P+ for the LCR as well, as there are no industry standards for it by SAAMI, CIP or anyone else. They stated that ammo manufactured to industry standards was okay.

Don’t see where they said all types and pressure levels were safe to use, just those manufactured to US standards.

I have not heard of anyone specifically condoning +P+ in a factory manual. Since there are no pressure standards for it, the reason why they do not is pretty obvious.

I'm sure you do read it as no.

Other's like myself read it as yes, probably has something to do with the use of the 9mm ammo mfg'd for submachine guns.

In your post #31 you clearly stated
"The caution not to use it is highlighted in red letters. Obviously they want to get your attention and desire that particular message to be clearly understood."

For some odd reason there is no "red" warning in the lcr manual for the 9mm about the use of p+ or +p+ ammo If you read the ruger lc9s manual you will see that they clearly "in red" have a no +p+ warning.

Odd that ruger puts a "red" +p+ warning for 1 firearm but doesn't for another. Heck the ruger SR 9mm manual doesn't have a "red" +p+ warning either.

[Forrest r]

It's a bad day when you can't shoot/use LE 9mm ammo in a ruger lcr or a sr, but you can in a $200 hi-point pistol.

Hate to say it but the ruger blackhawk manual using the same wording for the 9mm cylinders as they do for the lcr 9mm revolver.

Page #15
"Because 9mm cartridges are manufactured worldwide for use in pistols, revolvers, and
submachine guns, it is possible to encounter cartridges which, when fired,
develop pierced primers. If this occurs, discontinue the use of the particular
brand or type of ammunition. The possibility of a pierced primer is another
compelling reason why a shooter should always wear protective glasses to shield
his eyes."

I guess that means that you can't use the LE 9mm ammo in the lcr's or the blackhawk's.

[35remington]

Call ‘em and find out if you are confused about their meaning. Best guess is they will say no to ammo that does not have a defined standard.

They did say ammo loaded to US standards was approved and we know +P+ is not loaded to any standard, so my reading of no into their statement is done by paying attention to what was printed rather than taking inference from something else.

Heck, I’ll give them a call if that helps someone.

The SR9 manual says ammo loaded to SAAMI or CIP standards is approved. To think that includes +P+ is a mistake in reading or understanding that +P+ has no standards. So no to that pistol as well in terms of specific endorsement.

Glock does not recommend it either. This is playing out as I suggested it would. Again just speaking about what the manufacturers of the guns say about what to do.

If the wording is the same for the Blackhawk the company line is NO for that one as well. No surprise there.

If Hi Point states specifically that their guns can run +P+ I would be fascinated to see it. Statements like the type found earlier about the LCR will not be very convincing because they give no such endorsement. I suspect Hi Point says something similar and gives no endorsement.

The fail is the suggestion that ammo loaded to standards is approved. Ergo, +P+ is clearly not.

My point is simply this: Since Plus P Plus has no standards, asking a manufacturer to approve its use when the maker of the ammo’s idea of “safe pressures” may markedly deviate from the firearm maker’s idea of “safe pressures” is something they are just not going to do. Understandably so.

After being informed, what you do next is personal choice. Free world out there, at least most of the time.

[jmort]

I have a couple 9mm LCRs
I am good with standard pressure loads
I call (whatever does not get me in trouble for language) on the "Blackhawk could not take +P+"
My LC9s Pros' manuals say +P ok, but that a lot of them will accelerate wear.
My 9mm Ruger American says unlimited +P but now Ruger has a recall on those.
There are plenty of good standard pressure ammunition choices.

"The SAAMI pressure limit for the 9×19mm Parabellum is set at 241.32 MPa (35,001 psi) piezo pressure. The SAAMI pressure limit for the 9×19mm Parabellum +P is set at 265.45 MPa (38,500 psi) piezo pressure. An empty case with primer weighs about 4 g (0.14 oz)."

So there is no +P+ standard, but you would think it is around 40k psi.
At that point, I would not shoot it. Makes no sense to me. I see no need.
I would go with the .357 Sig.

[tazman]

Personally, I have never seen the need to load a cartridge beyond it's original design. I have seen many do this over the years with uniformly poor to disastrous results.
If you want more power, get a gun with a more powerful cartridge. Why risk a perfectly good firearm by loading beyond the cartridge limitations?

[35remington]

Again, the point I am making is whether the maker of the gun wants you to use hot ammo, or not.

What you shoot is personal choice. If you do what you do after gathering all relevant information....that is all one can expect. No one controls what you choose to do.

No one suggested the Blackhawk could not ever take hotter ammo. What was stated is it is pretty clear Ruger does not recommend Plus P Plus in it for understandable reasons, so I see nothing to disagree with in anything I did say.