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Thread: 9mm +P+, what pistol can shoot it?

  1. #61
    Boolit Buddy
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    It's my understanding, I could be wrong, that +P+ pressures are less than or equal to proof loads. That said, do you really want to feed your gun a steady diet of proof loads? It may take it but for how long?

  2. #62
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    The op asked about le 9mm ammo and what firearm it could safely be used in.

    After 3 pages of this thread, apparently the only "safe" firearm is a custom rig designed for major ammo.

    Tends to make me wonder why:
    Le's aren't issued these special rigs??? Why are we putting their lives/safety in danger by not only giving them this dangerous ammo to use & then giving them something like a glock to use it in? Why do I keep seeing countless posts about don't use reloads for sd/ccw or you'll be hiring a lawyer. Use whatever your local le's use seeings how the le ammo is so dangerous. Why do all those le turn-ins sell like hotcakes when they hit the market after having all the damage & pre-mature wear from using the dangerous le ammo?

    I'm not telling anyone to use any ammo.

    I just think it's impressive that truckloads of this high pressure le 9mm ammo has been used for decades by countless 1000's of le officials in common firearms that you & I can buy pretty much anywhere. A box of the older lower pressured ammo comes up on this website in this thread (old ='s 40,000psi vs new 42,000psi) & no one can figure out what firearm to use it in.

    Might be a good thing the next time you ask a local le officer what ammo they use. Go 1 step further and ask them what firearm was issued to them to use it in.

  3. #63
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    Disagree, not exactly what is in this thread. Specific firearms mentioned and the usual thread drift. And now no firearm mentioned, and an thread autopsy which is ironic.
    I will agree with the P89s, but I am biased. Mine seem bullet-proof.
    "Had his shooting been as good as his running, he might have given a better account of himself."
    James. C. Henderson

  4. #64
    Boolit Grand Master
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    What was discussed was whether the manufacturer warrants or recommends the use of Plus P Plus.

    None do. In that context, the information is yours to do with as you please, and for you to make some decision about what it means in relation to your planned future use of the gun

    Is that really that unacceptable given lots of people will make their own final decision on the matter that suits them? Pointing out the realities of manufacturer recommendations does not prevent anyone from doing anything. Just gives them something to think about.

    Given that truth, there is little to argue with or get upset about.

    I think the implication that +P+ ammo is used by the majority or even a significantly large percentage of LE agencies needs some corroboration before it can be discussed as a “given.” I suspect its usage is in the very small minority by LE as a whole, but then I do not have country wide stats on the matter either.

    Best guess on my part is +P+ is talked about way more than it is shot by LE nation wide. I am not aware that the FBI issues +P+ to the rank and file in preference to lower power ammo, for instance.

    If someone knows about significant numbers of LE entities issuing +P+ in quantity by all means give a lowdown on who and the guns they are shooting it in as that would be information of use.
    Last edited by 35remington; 10-26-2018 at 10:31 AM.

  5. #65
    Boolit Master RED BEAR's Avatar
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    35 REMINGTON that is my point exactly name me one company that loads over saami specs. +p+ is a marketing thing it is no difference between it and +p. after reading this thread i would say that the marketing worked well. there is not a company anywhere that will load over the accepted limits. if you can find one let me know i might buy some before they are sued out of existence

  6. #66
    Boolit Grand Master Texas by God's Avatar
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    Imported in the late 80s/early 90s; Hirteberger Patrone +P+ 100gr fp lived up to the hype. We fired 49 rounds thru a Star 30M and the recoil resembled .357 125 Rem hp from a Security Six. No way would I shoot it in my Taurus 92 or Astra 600/43 back then. They were HOT.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

  7. #67
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    Jmort--right you are, those Ruger P89s are TANKS. I have run some STALWART 30 Luger loads from my pistol, using its swap barrel and the 9mm recoil spring. LOUD--and flat-shooting like a 22-250.

    Our 2 "carry" 9mms are both SIG-Sauers, a P-226 and a P-228. Our ammo of choice is labeled as "+P", whatever that is. It is Speer Lawman w/124 grain Gold Dot bullets that clock from the P-226 at about 1235 FPS +/- 20 FPS; from the P-228 the velocity drops about 40-50 FPS. Per my armorer, both pistols will run this Euro-spec ammo for 5,000 rounds before a refit is recommended. In heavy service (like a military unit or police department) an owner should expect 4 more 5K round cycles after the first refit, and should consider retirement at the 25K round count. "Refit" at 5K includes replacement of recoil spring and guide rod, replacement of small springs in the decocking mechanism, and overall inspection for undue wear or receiver cracks. At 10K round count, hammer spring and strut and often the barrel are replaced, in addition to the springs replaced at 5K. I am not real worried about the pistols--if they break, I'll replace them. The P-226 is at about 8K rounds total, with one refit under its belt.
    I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.

  8. #68
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    I feed my g22 gen4 with storm lake 9mm barrel nothing but the hottest of handloads and never had a problem, gun still in perfect cond.

  9. #69
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    Anybody have any experience with underwood +p+? I've fired it in my G19 and CZ75 with no issues but in limited quanity. Yes, it's hot but no pierced primers or any of the sort of thing that would scare you into not shooting it at all in a decently strong pistol. I am hesitant to shoot it in the kel tecs. using 124 and 115 gr.

    Ebner

  10. #70
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    I have ordered it, but I found that really did not change that much. Shot in a P89.
    I like both the Lehigh Defender and Penetrator bullets that Underwood loads. I buy also buy the bullets directly from Lehigh. But I did just get a box full of boxes of ammunition from Underwood. Especially for the .380 ACPs that get pocket carried. At this point, beginning to favor the Penetrators. Standard pressure Penetrators seem to be the best all around.
    Last edited by jmort; 11-16-2018 at 08:33 AM.
    "Had his shooting been as good as his running, he might have given a better account of himself."
    James. C. Henderson

  11. #71
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    I have not tried the LeHigh yet but did see a youtube video from .22plinkster where he put one in 10mm through a teller window. Not too many handguns will do that, perhaps too much of a good thing in a public setting. The 9mm +p+ 115 or 124 or the 10mm 200 JHP underwood is what I've been carrying for awhile now.

    Ebner

  12. #72
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    Here it is
    "Had his shooting been as good as his running, he might have given a better account of himself."
    James. C. Henderson

  13. #73
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    If you are worried about over-penetration, standard pressure Lehigh Defender is just right. I tend to want through and through.
    BTW, I have seen the 10mm shoot through level 3A body armor
    Last edited by jmort; 11-16-2018 at 10:38 AM.
    "Had his shooting been as good as his running, he might have given a better account of himself."
    James. C. Henderson

  14. #74
    Boolit Master Clark's Avatar
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    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Hirtenberger 100 gr 9mm ammo 20181130_085214.jpg 
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ID:	231242

    In 1999 I started reloading. Nearly the first thing I did was try to work up to destruction in 9mm with every possible pistol powder and bullet.

    The thumbnail take home would look like:

    1) Usually the first thing to fail in a 9mm work up is the brass blows out down the feed ramp.
    This is because the feed ramp intrusion is typically 0.19" and the web of a 9mm case is typically 0.16"
    Here are some measurements of some 9 mm feed ramp instructions.
    Glock 19: 0.190"
    Star M43 0.165"
    CZ52 Czech aftermarket barrel 0.145"
    Tokarev Chinese 9mm barrel 0.160"
    Beretta 92 0.163"
    kel-tec P11 0.190"
    kel-tec PF9 0.190"
    S&W 659 0.183"
    Star BM 0.215"
    Star Super B 0.193"

    That case blow out down a 0.19" feed ramp intrusion will typically happen with ~~50% extra powder. All powders are different, and AA#5 and HS-6 make trouble much sooner than Unique or Power Pistol.

    +P+ has ~ 10% more powder.

    Comparing +P+ with handloads over the chronograph:
    Kel-Tec PF9 3" barrel
    a) 124 gr Hornady bullets and 10 gr Power Pistol. 1336 fps.
    b) 100 gr Hirtenberger +P+ 1275 fps

    But the strength of the 9mm pistol is not the practical limit for powder charges... the real practical limit is caused by......

    2) Recoil
    The forward momentum of the projectile and gas causes a reaction in gun and shooter's arm movement.
    About half the calculated momentum is coupled to the slide and barrel velocity with respect to the frame velocity.
    This difference in momentum MV can be equated to and energy 1/2 mv^2 in slide kinetic energy with respect to the frame.
    That energy would ideally be stored in the recoil spring. As the powder charge is increased, the spring force should be increased.
    Before the limit of case blowout is reached the spring force needed becomes prohibitive:
    1) Few men have the grip strength to chamber a round
    2) The slide accelerated forward so fast the magazine spring can not push up another round fast enough and the chamber comes up empty. This requires double mag springs, the few have the thumb strength to load.
    3) The disconnection in the semi auto trigger may not reset that fast. Glocks will need to get the New York trigger.


    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	1911 Colt commander slide force 3-19-2013.jpg 
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    In this picture I have plotted force to push back a slide and force returning the slide in a semi auto pistol, measured with a force gauge. The hysteresis is caused by both cocking the hammer effort and by friction
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	semi auto handgun recoil vs pressure vs recoil spring force 20180516_061631.jpg 
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    Here I depect and inadequate recoil spring allowing the slide to hammer the frame. This is bad for the pistol, the shooter's joints and nerves. That is compared to a recoil spring that matches the ammo. Recoil is pleasant and empty cases land 5 feet away.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check